Which commonly made sage talking point is more annoying?
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  Which commonly made sage talking point is more annoying?
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Question: Which commonly made sage talking point is more annoying?
#1
Nixon was more liberal than any Presidents who followed him
 
#2
The Democrats are to the right of all European parties
 
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Author Topic: Which commonly made sage talking point is more annoying?  (Read 6383 times)
IceSpear
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« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2014, 04:23:36 PM »

Again, you're comparing apples and oranges. Both the American Left and the European Right support what is politically feasible in their respective societies.

Sure the policy results of American Democrats, when in government, leave a lot to be desired from a left-wing perspective, but their actual ideology is not to the right of European conservative parties.

Yes, but that's still referring to hypotheticals, and not to what they actually are. Obviously the Democrats would be more left-wing if they were in Europe. But they aren't, and are thus able to be compared to European conservatives on an ideological scale.

Besides, what is "politically feasible" doesn't really describe Democrats well. For example, I bet single payer would poll better than Obamacare does currently. The public option certainly did.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2014, 04:24:51 PM »

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lol, mittens and obama being ideologically identical, good test, much accurate

Much better evidence than gut feelings and inclination. And on a worldwide scale, there really WASN'T that much difference between them. Only in the context of an American-centric worldview was there a wide ideological gulf between Obama and Romney.
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Cassius
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« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2014, 05:15:06 PM »

The American political reality doesn't allow Democrats to be what they should be, but that doesn't make them further to the right than conservative parties (who, I might add, would also be more right-wing if they could, usually).

Who cares about "what they could be"? We're talking about what they are.

Way to completely ignore the actual point of his statement, which I've taken the liberty of "bold"ing for you.

Yet every statement to this effect has had no supporting evidence.




Here's two charts for the Conservative Party in the UK and the standard bearer of the Democratic Party. The Conservative Party is slightly to his right. Hardly the wide ideological gulf that people here are suggesting.



Really... The political compass. My dead dog is/was a better judge of ideology than that test.

(On a side note, wasn't it dreamed up by some hard-lefties?)
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Cathcon
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« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2014, 05:16:58 PM »

Cassius, to my knowledge, the Nolan Chart, which either is the Political Compass, or resembles it greatly, was thought of by a founder of the Libertarian Party. Haven't checked Wikipedia in a while though.
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« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2014, 05:17:58 PM »
« Edited: February 17, 2014, 05:19:43 PM by Temp. Speaker Scott »

I can't believe there are people who take that political compass chart seriously.  The whole think should be discredited for that alone.

I mean... Rocky Anderson?  Fiscal conservative?
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Cassius
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« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2014, 05:19:38 PM »

Cassius, to my knowledge, the Nolan Chart, which either is the Political Compass, or resembles it greatly, was thought of by a founder of the Libertarian Party. Haven't checked Wikipedia in a while though.

Oh not the Nolan chart (which does, in my view, have a little value). It's the political compass test that I'm led to believe was invented by some lefties.
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Goldwater
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« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2014, 07:20:57 PM »

If the political compass was accurate, than even in with the most right-wing results I got I'm apparently only as far right as Obama and as libertarian as Jill Stein. So, yeah, that chart is complete bullsh**t.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2014, 07:52:03 PM »

Cassius, to my knowledge, the Nolan Chart, which either is the Political Compass, or resembles it greatly, was thought of by a founder of the Libertarian Party. Haven't checked Wikipedia in a while though.

Oh not the Nolan chart (which does, in my view, have a little value). It's the political compass test that I'm led to believe was invented by some lefties.

The Political Compass test was invented by some Labourites who wanted to criticize Tony Blair/New Labour from the left. That in itself doesn't make the test useless, but their refusal to release their answers for various politicans does.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2014, 08:36:20 PM »

Democratic Party behind closed door's positions < European conservative's stated positions < Democratic Party stated positions < European conservative's behind closed door's positions
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BRTD
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« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2014, 09:00:26 PM »

I should point out that the Swiss People's Party and the Norwegian Progress Party are/were the largest right wing parties in the country and Progress is still in the right wing coalition government, not exactly fringe parties. Is anyone going to argue the Democrats are to the right of them?
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Gustaf
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« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2014, 10:04:47 PM »

"Constrained by political reality" does not equal "lie about ideology".

Sweden is often considered (generally correctly) to have one the most left-wing rights in Europe. Our current financial minister is semi-famous in Sweden for once having stated his support for a society where everyone can just do what they want. Our prime minister at an earlier stage in his career claimed that the welfare state had made our population lazy and indolent.

Anyone who thinks that that party is to the left of the Democrats has something of a deficiency in how they view political parties.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2014, 10:45:49 PM »

If the political compass was accurate, than even in with the most right-wing results I got I'm apparently only as far right as Obama and as libertarian as Jill Stein. So, yeah, that chart is complete bullsh**t.

Again, you continue to see things from solely an American perspective. On a worldwide scale, not the kind that relies heavily on an Overton Window within a particular contemporary context, Obama is a conservative.
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« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2014, 11:00:25 PM »

If the political compass was accurate, than even in with the most right-wing results I got I'm apparently only as far right as Obama and as libertarian as Jill Stein. So, yeah, that chart is complete bullsh**t.

Again, you continue to see things from solely an American perspective. On a worldwide scale, not the kind that relies heavily on an Overton Window within a particular contemporary context, Obama is a conservative.

Based on what, exactly?
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traininthedistance
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« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2014, 11:04:36 PM »

Much better evidence than gut feelings and inclination. And on a worldwide scale, there really WASN'T that much difference between them. Only in the context of an American-centric worldview was there a wide ideological gulf between Obama and Romney.

The Political Compass is if anything even worse than gut feelings and inclination.  I wouldn't rely on its assessment of current political parties for anything, save possibly as a textbook example of the worst inanities of True Leftism.

Sure, on a worldwide scale there's not a huge gulf between the two parties... but the worldwide scale includes a lot of things we should be happy are not within the bounds of mainstream discourse here- a lot of which would fall in the "authoritarian" end of that chart.  (And some things we should be sad about, to be fair- but fewer things.)  
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2014, 11:10:36 PM »

If the political compass was accurate, than even in with the most right-wing results I got I'm apparently only as far right as Obama and as libertarian as Jill Stein. So, yeah, that chart is complete bullsh**t.

Again, you continue to see things from solely an American perspective. On a worldwide scale, not the kind that relies heavily on an Overton Window within a particular contemporary context, Obama is a conservative.
Forget Obama, do you actually think that Rocky Anderson is an economic conservative by international standards?
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traininthedistance
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« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2014, 11:17:11 PM »
« Edited: February 17, 2014, 11:22:35 PM by traininthedistance »

Anyway, Option 2 and it's not even close.  The groupthink around these parts has gotten to a point where I almost kind of want to defend the "Nixon was a liberal!" talking point again, not because it's correct per se, but because the common arguments against it tend to make certain presuppositions that I find myself less and less inclined to accept without questioning.  And when phrased more carefully (i.e. making clear that we are talking about policies and not the unknowable evil that lurks within men's hearts) it can be a useful rhetorical point in certain limited situations.
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Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook
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« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2014, 11:21:17 PM »

The one that isn't true.
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Mechaman
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« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2014, 11:38:31 PM »

Option 2.

Yeah, because the Golden Dawn is practically socialist compared to the Democratic Party.

I mean, seriously?
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Goldwater
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« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2014, 12:22:25 AM »

If the political compass was accurate, than even in with the most right-wing results I got I'm apparently only as far right as Obama and as libertarian as Jill Stein. So, yeah, that chart is complete bullsh**t.

Again, you continue to see things from solely an American perspective. On a worldwide scale, not the kind that relies heavily on an Overton Window within a particular contemporary context, Obama is a conservative.

Yeah yeah, I know Obama is conservative by international standards. But is he really that far to the right?
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morgieb
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« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2014, 12:25:11 AM »

The American political reality doesn't allow Democrats to be what they should be, but that doesn't make them further to the right than conservative parties (who, I might add, would also be more right-wing if they could, usually).

Who cares about "what they could be"? We're talking about what they are.

Way to completely ignore the actual point of his statement, which I've taken the liberty of "bold"ing for you.

Yet every statement to this effect has had no supporting evidence.




Here's two charts for the Conservative Party in the UK and the standard bearer of the Democratic Party. The Conservative Party is slightly to his right. Hardly the wide ideological gulf that people here are suggesting.
Quoting True Leftists. LOL.
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BRTD
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« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2014, 01:22:13 AM »
« Edited: February 18, 2014, 01:28:41 AM by The sidewalk cracks this way »

The problem that leads people to think option 2 is true is the lack of an easy apples to apples comparison between any country's politics, and the fact that existing political structures being preserved is a huge difference from instating them. Also imagine if Obama were a British politician. It's quite obvious that he wouldn't be campaigning for the abolishment of the NHS and its replacement by an Obamacare-esque system. Similarly its unlikely that an American David Cameron would be opposing Obamacare for not going far enough. I should also point out that stating the Democrats are the right of the Tories is basically saying that Thatcherites are left wing in an American context...

For an actual directable comparable set of policies, Swedish Cheese made a good one once, Reinfeldt refused to bail out the auto industry in Sweden in stark contrast to Obama. Also Joe Arpaio with his positions on immigration and "law and order" wouldn't be out of place in any European conservative party.

Also the Political Compass charts are utter f[inks]ing garbage and shouldn't be used as evidence of anything. Al once ripped apart how their charts are absurd even from a relative point of view, such as putting Labour in 1972 to the left of Labour in 1982.
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BRTD
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« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2014, 01:35:09 AM »

Also there's plenty of amusing things about that chart of the British parties above, but there's one that stands out that I feel the need to highlight: the closest party to Labour is the DUP.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2014, 01:56:14 AM »

I have yet to see either of these arguments made on the forum.

You haven't been paying close attention then. Both of them just happened yesterday.

And when did they happen before yesterday?
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BRTD
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« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2014, 02:10:32 AM »

All the time. Might I point out someone is arguing for one of the points in this very thread.
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2014, 02:11:23 AM »

Also, if Stewart Alexander is only halfway to the fullest extent of the economic left, what would a 100% economic leftist look like? How far can you go beyond socialism?
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