Quebec: April 7, 2014

[BigSkyBob]

Oh, great, the English suprematist troll is back again.

As an alleged "English suprematist troll" I would only note that I am much more sympathetic to their views that most.  Unlike most Anglophones, and unlike most Americans who had no opinion, I was routing for the referendums to pass, and was disappointed when they failed.  While my heart might sympathize with the cause, my head knows the linguistic future of North America. Government action might delay the inevitable, but, it can't stop it.


G.K. Chesterton wrote that he wouldn't want to governed by foreigners because it would mean being annoyed in hundreds of ways be could not begin to list.  I'm sure that French Canadians have a similar list for being governed by Anglophones. Voting to be governed by Francophones makes a certain sense. Designing a government where Anglophones are annoyed in thousands of ways that bureaucrats do list does not. At a certain you have acknowledge that what is happening in Quebec is state-organized harassment. And, at a certain point you have to conclude the purpose of the policies is simply to see to that Anglophones quit Quebec. That is simply wrong on so many levels.  To be lectured as a "suprematist" by those that support state-organized harassment of just about everyone who happens to not share their ethnicity, and harasses almost no one who happens to share their ethnicity doesn't even pass the smell test.

[MaxQue]

I'm sorry then. I just had bad memories of what happened last time you taled about the subject.

I'll happily concede you than the OQLF (the so-called language police) is clearly over the top. While, on paper, the idea is good, on the application, they are clearly overzealous. But, in the 70's, it was needed since all stores were belonging to Anglophones and were refusing to give services in French. But right now, it's clearly overzealous and they should stick to check in services in French are avaliable in every shop, which was the first goal. Besides that, I don't see any "bureaucratic harassment". Most government forms are avaliable in English and most emigration is because it's not really possible to live in Quebec anymore as an unilingual Anglophone outside Montreal and Outaouais. It's quite difficult to live in an area where you are not talking the language of the majority. You're de facto excluded, since you can't communicate with them.

As for French fries, why they would do that? They didn't have to be forced, they translate the name of their products in the local language in most countries. It helps to identify the product.

And, really, it's possible to reach a perfect level in English with current system. Upper education isn't subject to that and I know plenty of people who decided to go to an English college or university for that reason. It's working well right now.

[BigSkyBob]

I'm sorry then. I just had bad memories of what happened last time you taled about the subject.

I'll happily concede you than the OQLF (the so-called language police) is clearly over the top. While, on paper, the idea is good, on the application, they are clearly overzealous. But, in the 70's, it was needed since all stores were belonging to Anglophones and were refusing to give services in French. But right now, it's clearly overzealous and they should stick to check in services in French are avaliable in every shop, which was the first goal. Besides that, I don't see any "bureaucratic harassment". Most government forms are avaliable in English and most emigration is because it's not really possible to live in Quebec anymore as an unilingual Anglophone outside Montreal and Outaouais. It's quite difficult to live in an area where you are not talking the language of the majority. You're de facto excluded, since you can't communicate with them.

As for French fries, why they would do that? They didn't have to be forced, they translate the name of their products in the local language in most countries. It helps to identify the product.

And, really, it's possible to reach a perfect level in English with current system. Upper education isn't subject to that and I know plenty of people who decided to go to an English college or university for that reason. It's working well right now.

"But, in the 70's, it was needed since all stores were belonging to Anglophones and were refusing to give services in French. "

That sounds a little Orwellian to me.  I don't find it plausible that in a Province in which 80% of people speak French some stores weren't owned or managed by Francophones. It would seem that the shops that catered to Francophones would have more customers than those that catered exclusively to Anglophones.  Offering services in the indigenous language would be a competitive advantage that ought to have prevailed over time in a market economy.

What seems to be the case was that bilingualism had taken root in some areas.  That created a situation in which Francophone kids could seek employment in Alberta or Toronto, form families, and raise Anglophone kids, while Anglophone kids could move to bilingual areas of Quebec and raise bilingual Anglophones children.  The inevitable result of such a linguistic melting pot with a such a bias would have been English Canada.  This resulted in the rise of reactionary forces that wanted to vote to slow the process using the power of state.

In America, menus list things like "tacos" and "fajitas" in Mexican dinners, "cannoli" and "ravioli" in Italian dinners, "wantons" in Chinese dinners and "escargot" in French dinners.  I read a story a couple of years ago about an Italian dinner in Quebec that was threatened with fines and other horrors if it continued to sell, I think it was, "cannoli." Apparently, there is a French name for the dish.  Now, you might dismiss this an example of being "overzealous," but, I do not.  Bad causes attract bad people.  Only folks who are "overzealous" would self-select to enforce such a ridiculous policy.  Government of fanatics, by fanatics, and for fanatics is going to create fanatical outcomes.

By your admission an Anglophone could have shopped with ease in Quebec back in the 70's. Presumably, if nothing else, they could have worked in the same shops.  Now, by your own admission, it isn't even possible for them to live in Quebec. You agree with me. We merely disagree on whether, or not, this outcome was intentional, or not.  We both agree this is what is happening. I find this harassment. You don't. Kids growing up in Quebec now face living in the quite difficult situation of not speaking English if they seek employment in Alberta or Toronto. You agree with me. We merely disagree on whether, or not, this outcome was intentional, or not.

[MaxQue]

Well, French people were pretty much all working-class and most stores were plainly refusing to serve people talking French to them and would often be answered by insults (the famous "speak white"). It improved through the 60's and 70's with language laws and an effort to educate Francophones (they weren't really educated then, the Catholic Church was opposing education, since it was inciting people to leave rural areas, farming and child procreation). Free market wasn't working because it was a widespread opinion in the anglophone community than French people and culture had to be assimilated into the Canadian English culture, by forcing them to talk English.

Given the whole level of education of Francophones, bilinguism wasn't an issue, since only the small Francophone elite was. Most Francophone didn't how to write, so, bilinguism was clearly out of the question and lack of bilinguism didn't stop the mass immigration to New England in the late 19th century. They learned once they moved there.

The target was more immigrants coming here and deciding to sent their kids at English (well, then, Protestant) schools instead of French (but, officially, Catholic) schools. There was a widespread feeling in the Francophone community than they would be quickly a minority if immigrants were integring into the Anglophone community instead of the Francophone one.

After, the famous Pasta-gate. It happened last year (on February 14), and the OQLF faced considerable backlash. You know, here, restaurants have tacos, fajitas, spaghetti, raviolis, etc... I can't say that about wantons in Chinese restaurants, but it's because I never go into them, so, I don't have a clue.
Removing words like pasta wasn't OQLF policies (it never happened at any point before that day) and they blamed it over an over-zealous employee. No clue if it was true or not, but the OQLF president resigned over it and they announced they would totally review how they conduct their inspections. Every French people I know thought it was ridiculous to fine people having foreign food words in their menus. It was an isolated incident, which caused deep embarassment to the population and, for that reason, wouldn't happen again.

Anglophones can still stop with ease in Montreal area and in the remaining Anglophones areas. In the other areas, the issue is than the Francophones mostly don't speak English. If an Anglophone doesn't speak French and the Francophone clerk doesn't speak English, it's normal than things are complicated. Sadly, clerks are not often bilingual in rural areas (bilinguism and education are related, and an educated person will most likely not be a shop clerk). It's exactly the same thing in the Anglophone community. Education and bilinguism is related, too, and people who would be likely to be clerks aren't talking French.

But, you know, bilinguism is quickly progressing, both in French and English communities and I hope than more bilinguism will lead to better communication and understand from both communities.

I know it's probably naive and than the bigots in both communities will do all they can to stop it, but without that hope, the pictureis quite grim and depressing. 

[You kip if you want to...]

Separatist movements actively thrive on divisions and bitterness between people, not the most honourable style of politics, it has to be said.

Nationalism will always cultivate a sense of superiority, and whether it's the PQ or the SNP in Scotland or any manner of other nationalist/separatist parties, there will always be times when one has to question whether such parties have crossed the 'racist' line.

[MaxQue]

Separatist movements actively thrive on divisions and bitterness between people, not the most honourable style of politics, it has to be said.

Nationalism will always cultivate a sense of superiority, and whether it's the PQ or the SNP in Scotland or any manner of other nationalist/separatist parties, there will always be times when one has to question whether such parties have crossed the 'racist' line.

The same could be said about their opponent, often. There is many anti-French people in English Canada.

[EPG]

Yeah, separatism does tend to exist because of perceived grievances, and big mother-countries of multi-lingual and multi-cultural empires haven't always covered themselves in glory.

[RogueBeaver]

All opposition parties confirmed their budget opposition. Dissolution either March 5 or 12. Legault sounded quite the turkey eager for Christmas.

[RedPrometheus]

Separatist movements actively thrive on divisions and bitterness between people, not the most honourable style of politics, it has to be said.

Nationalism will always cultivate a sense of superiority, and whether it's the PQ or the SNP in Scotland or any manner of other nationalist/separatist parties, there will always be times when one has to question whether such parties have crossed the 'racist' line.

The same could be said about their opponent, often. There is many anti-French people in English Canada.

That's true. It's nevertheless no justification for nationalism on either side.

[warandwar]

What's the deal with the pre-k fee?

[RogueBeaver]

What's the deal with the pre-k fee?

It went up $2, again.

[MaxQue]

I should note that if I lived in Quebec, I'd be voting UCQ.

Last news I heard, most founding members have left, saying than the party has been hijacked.

EDIT: More exactly, by regionalists wanting to create regional assemblies.

[Vega]

I would be voting  Liberal.

[MaxQue]

I would be voting  Liberal.

You like corruption, then?

[Vega]

I would be voting  Liberal.

You like corruption, then?

Evidently.

[Hatman 🍁]

I should note that if I lived in Quebec, I'd be voting UCQ.

Last news I heard, most founding members have left, saying than the party has been hijacked.

EDIT: More exactly, by regionalists wanting to create regional assemblies.

Hmm, I can live with that. Devolution would be an interesting idea. I would support it for Ontario (especially, Northern Ontario which should have its own Assembly like Scotland)

[RogueBeaver]

The Grits tried to recruit Marian Statsny in Lévis.

[Hatman 🍁]

The Grits tried to recruit Marian Statsny in Lévis.

Politics runs in the family, his brother is an MEP in Slovakia.

[RogueBeaver]

I wonder who would lead the PLQ if both Couillard and Moreau lost their seats.

[DC Al Fine]

I wonder who would lead the PLQ if both Couillard and Moreau lost their seats.

Charest

[RogueBeaver]

ROFLMAO. Speaking of FN, some Grit staffers were reprimanded for making that exact comparison on Twitter.

[RogueBeaver]

PLQ's Pierre Marsan (Robert-Baldwin), he of daycare P2P fame, is retiring after 6 terms.

[RogueBeaver]

PLQ's Danielle St-Amand (Trois-Rivières) is retiring for health reasons. Journalist Alexis Deschênes is likely to run for the PQ.

[RogueBeaver]

Yolande James is retiring to spend more time with her family. Wonder how many more Pélquistes will exit.

[MaxQue]

In my riding, the "star" candidate which was openly seeking the investiture withdrew, saying than he was interested in mines, not in things like the Charter.

It's one of the wierdest reasons I ever heard.