Largest teachers' union wants changes in Common Core

[Deus Naturae]

Link

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Great news for teachers and students alike!

(Edited to an accurate thread title - TF)

[Zioneer]

I support Common Core for one reason and one reason only: My state's far-right types (the powerful Utah Eagle Forum, for example) hate it. I don't honestly care about Common Core itself beyond hoping that it isn't another No Child Left Behind. I just hate the Eagle Forum and it's backwards, social reactionary antics.

[Sol]

I know very little about the Common Core myself either. I just know NC screwed up the introduction of it here very badly- they messed up the curriculum badly and didn't provide enough support, which meant that students did quite poorly on the new end-of-year tests.

[ElectionsGuy]

Great! Common Core is awful and needs to be brought down.

[I Will Not Be Wrong]

I support Common Core for one reason and one reason only: My state's far-right types (the powerful Utah Eagle Forum, for example) hate it. I don't honestly care about Common Core itself beyond hoping that it isn't another No Child Left Behind. I just hate the Eagle Forum and it's backwards, social reactionary antics.

That's great, disagree with them just because you usually are on most issues. Great common sense.

[Marnetmar]

I don't have that much of a problem with common core itself but I do agree that implementation has been awful. Couple that with the fact that most teachers in the U.S are mediocre to downright awful at their jobs and you get a disaster.

[muon2]

Great! Common Core is awful and needs to be brought down.

Putting aside the federal tie-in, what about the actual standards do you think are inappropriate to 21st century educational needs? Should we continue to have standards that are based on the technological society that existed at the beginning of the 1960's?

[TNF]

Common Core is nonsense, so I'm glad to see my union finally getting the guts to oppose it.

[JerryArkansas]

I am happy they now see the light.

Great! Common Core is awful and needs to be brought down.

Putting aside the federal tie-in, what about the actual standards do you think are inappropriate to 21st century educational needs? Should we continue to have standards that are based on the technological society that existed at the beginning of the 1960's?

What I don't like about it is how a kid in elementary has to do 180 steps in order to do a 2 step division problem, and if they don't, they get it wrong.

[angus]

It seems like they have problems with its implementation, not with the standards.

It may be worth looking into the common core standards.  PA has a cheesy website with very little information, but the national website is fairly navigable and informative. 

Looking over the third-grade goals, I'd say that they all seem reasonable.  Of course, like most federal initiatives it includes math and language arts only.  No mention of geography, the fine arts, history, civics, or anything else. 

In any case, these teachers seem to be upset about its implementation, and rightfully so.  According to the linked article, "70 percent of teachers believe implementation is going poorly in their schools — and two-thirds report that they have never been asked to give their input on how to introduce the new standards." 

As an aside, here is a graphic from http://www.corestandards.org showing a map of the states which have adopted these standards, no doubt under some economic pressure from Washington.  ("an opportunity for states to compete for a share of $4.35 billion reserved for state education incentives by the ARRA" is how Arne Duncan described it in 2009):



The article points out that although none of the states that originally adopted the standards have decided to drop them, Indiana is "close" to doing so, and several other states, including Michigan, Wisconsin and Georgia, are considering it as well.

[muon2]

I am happy they now see the light.

Great! Common Core is awful and needs to be brought down.

Putting aside the federal tie-in, what about the actual standards do you think are inappropriate to 21st century educational needs? Should we continue to have standards that are based on the technological society that existed at the beginning of the 1960's?

What I don't like about it is how a kid in elementary has to do 180 steps in order to do a 2 step division problem, and if they don't, they get it wrong.

Where is that in the standards?

[JerryArkansas]

I am happy they now see the light.

Great! Common Core is awful and needs to be brought down.

Putting aside the federal tie-in, what about the actual standards do you think are inappropriate to 21st century educational needs? Should we continue to have standards that are based on the technological society that existed at the beginning of the 1960's?

What I don't like about it is how a kid in elementary has to do 180 steps in order to do a 2 step division problem, and if they don't, they get it wrong.

Where is that in the standards?

It's there.

[muon2]

I am happy they now see the light.

Great! Common Core is awful and needs to be brought down.

Putting aside the federal tie-in, what about the actual standards do you think are inappropriate to 21st century educational needs? Should we continue to have standards that are based on the technological society that existed at the beginning of the 1960's?

What I don't like about it is how a kid in elementary has to do 180 steps in order to do a 2 step division problem, and if they don't, they get it wrong.

Where is that in the standards?

It's there.

Here's the link to the full set of standards, and they are broken down by both grade-level and subject-domain. I can't find it so show me where it is. Don't confuse how some teacher wants to implement a standard with the actual standard.

[Zioneer]

I support Common Core for one reason and one reason only: My state's far-right types (the powerful Utah Eagle Forum, for example) hate it. I don't honestly care about Common Core itself beyond hoping that it isn't another No Child Left Behind. I just hate the Eagle Forum and it's backwards, social reactionary antics.

That's great, disagree with them just because you usually are on most issues. Great common sense.

As I said, I don't really care about Common Core itself. I'm not that well-versed in education issues (and it's not one of my areas of interest), so I only support it because I don't like the bigots in the Eagle Forum. If it turns out to be bad, then okay, I oppose it. But as of now, since I don't have enough information (and currently don't care to enlighten myself as I'm more concerned with other issues), I simply want to place myself on the opposite side of the reactionary bigots.

To be honest though, Utah's K-12 education system is terrible, so...

[muon2]

It seems like they have problems with its implementation, not with the standards.

It may be worth looking into the common core standards.  PA has a cheesy website with very little information, but the national website is fairly navigable and informative. 

Looking over the third-grade goals, I'd say that they all seem reasonable.  Of course, like most federal initiatives it includes math and language arts only.  No mention of geography, the fine arts, history, civics, or anything else. 

In any case, these teachers seem to be upset about its implementation, and rightfully so.  According to the linked article, "70 percent of teachers believe implementation is going poorly in their schools — and two-thirds report that they have never been asked to give their input on how to introduce the new standards." 

As an aside, here is a graphic from http://www.corestandards.org showing a map of the states which have adopted these standards, no doubt under some economic pressure from Washington.  ("an opportunity for states to compete for a share of $4.35 billion reserved for state education incentives by the ARRA" is how Arne Duncan described it in 2009):



The article points out that although none of the states that originally adopted the standards have decided to drop them, Indiana is "close" to doing so, and several other states, including Michigan, Wisconsin and Georgia, are considering it as well.

Until the federal tie to ARRA the standards were and organic product of the states. DC wanted to claim a share of ownership, and over the objections of the heads of the depts of ed for the states from both parties they persisted in their goal to nationalize it. Ironically, had DC left it alone for a few years, the standards probably would have been nationally adopted anyway with perhaps a very few exceptions.

[JerryArkansas]

I am happy they now see the light.

Great! Common Core is awful and needs to be brought down.

Putting aside the federal tie-in, what about the actual standards do you think are inappropriate to 21st century educational needs? Should we continue to have standards that are based on the technological society that existed at the beginning of the 1960's?

What I don't like about it is how a kid in elementary has to do 180 steps in order to do a 2 step division problem, and if they don't, they get it wrong.

Where is that in the standards?

It's there.

Here's the link to the full set of standards, and they are broken down by both grade-level and subject-domain. I can't find it so show me where it is. Don't confuse how some teacher wants to implement a standard with the actual standard.

Here in Arkansas, that is what is happening right now.  It is not just one teacher, it is happening at each school.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Minnesota did adopt the English common core standards, but did not adopt the math standards because state officials believe the state math standards to be superior.

I think it was a prudent choice.

[muon2]

I am happy they now see the light.

Great! Common Core is awful and needs to be brought down.

Putting aside the federal tie-in, what about the actual standards do you think are inappropriate to 21st century educational needs? Should we continue to have standards that are based on the technological society that existed at the beginning of the 1960's?

What I don't like about it is how a kid in elementary has to do 180 steps in order to do a 2 step division problem, and if they don't, they get it wrong.

Where is that in the standards?

It's there.

Here's the link to the full set of standards, and they are broken down by both grade-level and subject-domain. I can't find it so show me where it is. Don't confuse how some teacher wants to implement a standard with the actual standard.

Here in Arkansas, that is what is happening right now.  It is not just one teacher, it is happening at each school.

That just sounds bizarre. Do you have a link to a story describing this?

[angus]

Well, the 180 steps is probably an exaggeration, but he is onto something.  We have experienced this sort of thing at my son's school as well, and it isn't just one teacher.  They seem convinced of the need for the student to show the thought process.  Not in his gifted class, which is a pull-out program that he goes to for a couple of hours on Mondays and Wednesdays, but his regular teacher this year and last year had the mindset, and were apparently convinced that their directions required such written evidence.  There'd be questions like  "Sally is two years younger than Bill.  Bill is twice the age of Michael, who is nine years younger than his sixteen-year-old sister Rachel.  How old is Sally?"   My son would think about it for a few moments and write 12.  He would get the question wrong.  We'd see the teacher about it.  She'd explain that the rules require him to write something like "16-9=7.  7x2=14.  14-2=12." 

I've had teachers like this as well.  I remember in grad school a professor asking me how many piano tuners I thought there might be in Chicago.  I was in his office and we were drinking Maker's Mark.  He always kept a bottle of it in his office and usually only drank it with his colleagues and the students in his group, but he and I were friendly so he'd offer me a cup from time to time.  When he asked I thought it was a strange question.  Why Chicago?  Why piano tuners?  Still, I played along.  After a few minutes I said, "I suppose around 30."  He said, "Wrong!  Let me show you how to do the problem..." and then proceeded to lecture me about population assumptions, percent of the population having pianos, percent of those pianos that were accoustic, percent of those accoustic pianos that might need servicing on any given day, the number of pianos per day that an experienced tuner could tune, etc.  All the same sorts of things I thought about when I came up with the number 30, in fact.  I just didn't feel the need to blurt all that out.  After all, I'd answered the question.  He was obviously one of those "show your work" teachers.  I can appreciate that.  You write test questions that you don't really expect anyone to get right, then you have to have something to grade.  Complicated thermodynamics questions are like that.  If you forget to convert Joules per mole per Kelvin to electron-volts per electron per Kelvin along the way, and all you write is the answer, then there's nothing there to partially credit.  Especially if it isn't obvious to you what the mistake was.  On the other hand, if the student writes the correct answer, and there's a reasonable certainty that the student wasn't guilty of academic dishonesty, then in my book it's full credit.

I think maybe that's what Jerry was talking about.  And I agree with him that it can be frustrating.  I've pretty much convinced my son to play the game--Just show the work if that's what the teacher wants.  I would, in general, tell him to be damned sure that the answer is correct if all you're going to write is the answer.  Also, never leave a question blank.  Even if you become mystified, write something relevant to show that you have thought about it. 

[Brewer]

Well, the 180 steps is probably an exaggeration, but he is onto something.  We have experienced this sort of thing at my son's school as well, and it isn't just one teacher.  They seem convinced of the need for the student to show the thought process.  Not in his gifted class, which is a pull-out program that he goes to for a couple of hours on Mondays and Wednesdays, but his regular teacher this year and last year had the mindset, and were apparently convinced that their directions required such written evidence.  There'd be questions like  "Sally is two years younger than Bill.  Bill is twice the age of Michael, who is nine years younger than his sixteen-year-old sister Rachel.  How old is Sally?"   My son would think about it for a few moments and write 12.  He would get the question wrong.  We'd see the teacher about it.  She'd explain that the rules require him to write something like "16-9=7.  7x2=14.  14-2=12." 

I've had teachers like this as well.  I remember in grad school a professor asking me how many piano tuners I thought there might be in Chicago.  I was in his office and we were drinking Maker's Mark.  He always kept a bottle of it in his office and usually only drank it with his colleagues and the students in his group, but he and I were friendly so he'd offer me a cup from time to time.  When he asked I thought it was a strange question.  Why Chicago?  Why piano tuners?  Still, I played along.  After a few minutes I said, "I suppose around 30."  He said, "Wrong!  Let me show you how to do the problem..." and then proceeded to lecture me about population assumptions, percent of the population having pianos, percent of those pianos that were accoustic, percent of those accoustic pianos that might need servicing on any given day, the number of pianos per day that an experienced tuner could tune, etc.  All the same sorts of things I thought about when I came up with the number 30, in fact.  I just didn't feel the need to blurt all that out.  After all, I'd answered the question.  He was obviously one of those "show your work" teachers.  I can appreciate that.  You write test questions that you don't really expect anyone to get right, then you have to have something to grade.  Complicated thermodynamics questions are like that.  If you forget to convert Joules per mole per Kelvin to electron-volts per electron per Kelvin along the way, and all you write is the answer, then there's nothing there to partially credit.  Especially if it isn't obvious to you what the mistake was.  On the other hand, if the student writes the correct answer, and there's a reasonable certainty that the student wasn't guilty of academic dishonesty, then in my book it's full credit.

I think maybe that's what Jerry was talking about.  And I agree with him that it can be frustrating.  I've pretty much convinced my son to play the game--Just show the work if that's what the teacher wants.  I would, in general, tell him to be damned sure that the answer is correct if all you're going to write is the answer.  Also, never leave a question blank.  Even if you become mystified, write something relevant to show that you have thought about it. 

All of this is true, but as a student myself, teachers also oftentimes make it clear to us that we must show work so that if we make a mistake, we can go back and check out our work to see what we did wrong. Is it tiresome? Hell yeah. Is it productive? Oftentimes, yes.

[MaxQue]

Well, at high school level and higher, in Quebec, the answer in itself is perhaps worth 25% of the points of the problem. Most points are about the process, not the answer.

Like a teacher often said, "we are interested in the thought process, not the answer. We want to know if you understand the process, not if you can write an answer".

Through, for angus example, it's a bit dumb.

[Brewer]

It does not occur as much in high school, but when I was in middle school, showing your work in math class was oftentimes mandatory. If you wrote the correct answer but didn't show your work, you received a zero. Yet with this process required, teachers wonder why many students don't finish on time? Angus brings up a perfect example that exposes a real flaw in the system. I would much rather have a system put in place that resembles the one MaxQue was talking about, rather than have problems be all-or-nothing.

[PiMp DaDdy FitzGerald]

The truth is that, like most things with Democratic support, the Common Core works. The problem is that the hillbilly states and the snakelike teachers' unions won't support their students and are obstructing its implementation.

This is one of the times when Rahm Emmanuel is right.

[7,052,770]

Showing work is extremely important in math classes, because often the point is to teach a specific method.  The teacher needs to know you didn't just plug it into a calculator or use an earlier method.  For example, the first lesson about derivatives will go over the formal definition (limit as x approaches h of (f(x+h) - f(x))/h).  Some students may have already heard about the power rule, but it's no good to use that much faster shortcut until you've mastered conceptually what a derivative is.  If you gloss over that just to "get the right answer," you're going to be behind for the rest of your mathematical career.

Similarly, the are multiple ways to solve a system of equations.  If the problem says "solve these equations by Kramer's Rule," the teacher has to make sure you actually did it that way instead of using a different method or a fancy calculator/website.


Anyhow, every day Americans whine about Common Core is another day Japan, South Korea, and 22 other countries move further ahead of us. What a shame.

[muon2]

Well, the 180 steps is probably an exaggeration, but he is onto something.  We have experienced this sort of thing at my son's school as well, and it isn't just one teacher.  They seem convinced of the need for the student to show the thought process.  Not in his gifted class, which is a pull-out program that he goes to for a couple of hours on Mondays and Wednesdays, but his regular teacher this year and last year had the mindset, and were apparently convinced that their directions required such written evidence.  There'd be questions like  "Sally is two years younger than Bill.  Bill is twice the age of Michael, who is nine years younger than his sixteen-year-old sister Rachel.  How old is Sally?"   My son would think about it for a few moments and write 12.  He would get the question wrong.  We'd see the teacher about it.  She'd explain that the rules require him to write something like "16-9=7.  7x2=14.  14-2=12." 

I've had teachers like this as well.  I remember in grad school a professor asking me how many piano tuners I thought there might be in Chicago.  I was in his office and we were drinking Maker's Mark.  He always kept a bottle of it in his office and usually only drank it with his colleagues and the students in his group, but he and I were friendly so he'd offer me a cup from time to time.  When he asked I thought it was a strange question.  Why Chicago?  Why piano tuners?  Still, I played along.  After a few minutes I said, "I suppose around 30."  He said, "Wrong!  Let me show you how to do the problem..." and then proceeded to lecture me about population assumptions, percent of the population having pianos, percent of those pianos that were accoustic, percent of those accoustic pianos that might need servicing on any given day, the number of pianos per day that an experienced tuner could tune, etc.  All the same sorts of things I thought about when I came up with the number 30, in fact.  I just didn't feel the need to blurt all that out.  After all, I'd answered the question.  He was obviously one of those "show your work" teachers.  I can appreciate that.  You write test questions that you don't really expect anyone to get right, then you have to have something to grade.  Complicated thermodynamics questions are like that.  If you forget to convert Joules per mole per Kelvin to electron-volts per electron per Kelvin along the way, and all you write is the answer, then there's nothing there to partially credit.  Especially if it isn't obvious to you what the mistake was.  On the other hand, if the student writes the correct answer, and there's a reasonable certainty that the student wasn't guilty of academic dishonesty, then in my book it's full credit.

I think maybe that's what Jerry was talking about.  And I agree with him that it can be frustrating.  I've pretty much convinced my son to play the game--Just show the work if that's what the teacher wants.  I would, in general, tell him to be damned sure that the answer is correct if all you're going to write is the answer.  Also, never leave a question blank.  Even if you become mystified, write something relevant to show that you have thought about it. 

If this is the situation it has nothing to do with Common Core. It is quite common for teachers introducing a topic to stress showing work more than the answer, and I had plenty of teachers in the 60's and 70's who worked that way. I'll confess that on short problems on tests I give far more weight to a student showing understanding than whether or not they could plug numbers into a calculator. It's actually bringing the critical thinking skills of language arts to math and science and in the calculator/internet age it's a whole lot more important than old-fashioned number crunching.

BTW your example is one I also use in modified form. Your professor was using a problem attributed to Enrico Fermi. He was a strong believer in the importance in estimation and order of magnitude as part of science instruction. To this day the type of problems are called Fermi problems, and your example is in fact the one cited on Wikipedia.