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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2014, 02:53:24 PM »

there will be no tracker for midwest or northeast governor due to the fact that windjammer and dallasfan are running unopposed.

i will put up a tracker for ids legislature tomorrow morning when there are more than two votes.
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2014, 05:38:00 PM »

Could we get a hypothetical TNF v. Spiral count?
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Napoleon
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« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2014, 06:34:24 PM »

That's a cute interpretation, but, as I'm sure that you're aware, there are a couple of obvious objections. How Governor Sirnick chooses to count the vote will determine whether further elucidation on this point is necessary.

As I stated clearly, I'm unaware of any constitutionally sound alternatives but I would like to hear them as I particularly enjoy constitutional law debates

As the relevant regional statute directly states that it contradicts federal law, the regional law is no longer in effect per Section 2 of the Supremacy Act.

Vote Sanctity Act: A voter who edits his ballot any length of time after it has been posted in the voting booth thread for any Northeast Election nullifies it. Election authorities shall not count a ballot altered in the above manner.

Supremacy Act: To give primacy to federal  law over regional law.Section 1.The Northeast acknowledges that the federal constitution is the supreme law of the land and agrees to use all standards and regulations, including election law, set forth in the  federal constitution and statutes as the minimum standard for Northeast laws and statutes. Section 2.In cases where Northeast and federal law conflict, the federal law shall have supremacy.

As federal law clearly states "Persons who edit the post in which their vote(s) are contained at the place of voting after twenty minutes shall have their vote counted as void."

The Supremacy Act prevents the Northeast from using a thirty minute edit period, but as it says "minimum standard" the region is still allowed to enforce stricter regulations. The federal law does not guarantee a right to edit your vote within twenty minutes, only mandating that any votes edited past the 20 are void.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2014, 06:46:36 PM »

Could we get a hypothetical TNF v. Spiral count?

29-25 TNF
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Napoleon
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« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2014, 06:59:18 PM »

That's not the same text that I'm looking for the Northeast law. There's also the question of whether "minimum" standards are minimally inclusive or minimally exclusive.

What's your text and where can I find it? The texts I copied were the final bills passed by the assembly. And I don't consider that a legitimate question but I will play long. How does Judge Nix rule?
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Napoleon
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« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2014, 07:20:54 PM »
« Edited: February 21, 2014, 07:23:14 PM by Napoleon »

The Wiki must be wrong then...

The constitution does not guarantee that "at a minimum, votes edited less than twenty minutes after they were posted must be counted". I guess its a reading comprehension thing after all. I already posted the text of the constitution and you can spend some time learning what a minimum standard is if you aren't aware.
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President Tyrion
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« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2014, 07:30:09 PM »

Wow, Griffin was right. Napoleon really is a lot more active during election time Tongue
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Napoleon
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« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2014, 07:55:24 PM »

The Wiki must be wrong then...

The constitution does not guarantee that "at a minimum, votes edited less than twenty minutes after they were posted must be counted". I guess its a reading comprehension thing after all. I already posted the text of the constitution and you can spend some time learning what a minimum standard is if you aren't aware.

As someone concerned with reading comprehension, I'm sure that you agree that it's important to mind the adverbs.

No, its important to follow election law. Thats it. I don't want anyone's vote to be invalid but if that's the law, it must be followed EFFECTIVELY.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2014, 08:23:35 PM »

According to Governor Sirnick, the Supremacy Act doesn't change anything. It only codifies and acknowledges that federal voting regulations trump regional laws, as the Supreme Court ruled in Atlasia v. IDS (2013).

As that ruling struck down a fifty-post requirement for voting eligibility in the Southeast, which was stricter than the federal requirement at the time, it makes sense to interpret "minimum" as meaning a minimum standard of inclusiveness, i.e. if a vote is valid under federal law it is also valid under regional law.

Okay, now I will give you credit for a debate in good faith but I will once again demonstrate why that case does not apply. Atlasia v. IDS was brought about due to my "role" as an election watchdog type. However, that case was specific to voter registration. The Supreme Court was able to make that ruling in favor of Atlasia because the IDS constitution had voter requirements that "explicitly contradicted" the federal constitution, which is what must happen for the Supreme Court to strike down a regional law. The Court was also careful to make their ruling specific to voter registration and not all election laws, and did so because of the clear federal interest in having a uniform system of voter registration. There is no clear federal interest in regional matters such as this one nor is there an "explicit contradiction". The Vote Sanctity Act was unaffected by the ruling in Atlasia v. IDS 2013 and the Governor needs to be aware of that. I encourage anyone interested to go to page 8 of the government board and read that case if they find themselves confused about it still.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2014, 08:31:48 PM »

The lawsuit was specific to voter registration, but the Supremacy Act is not.

(I would also go further and argue that if federal election regulations and regional election regulations do not produce the same result, they are in conflict regardless of whether their wording implies a direct contradiction.)

And what relevant language in the Supremacy Act would repeal the Vote Sanctity Act?
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Napoleon
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« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2014, 08:41:02 PM »

The lawsuit was specific to voter registration, but the Supremacy Act is not.

(I would also go further and argue that if federal election regulations and regional election regulations do not produce the same result, they are in conflict regardless of whether their wording implies a direct contradiction.)

And what relevant language in the Supremacy Act would repeal the Vote Sanctity Act?

Section 2 gives federal law supremacy over regional law when they are "in conflict."

The law could only be in conflict if we were to do something like allow vote editing up to thirty minutes. Do you know how minimum standards work? You really should do some research yourself IMO but I will give you an example. If there are federal school standards that say students are required to understand the concept of minimum standards by fourth grade, and a state decides to make minimum standards part of the third grade curriculum, there is no conflict. But if the state decides "we will wait until fifth grade to teach this concept" they will probably lose a ton of money.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2014, 08:46:30 PM »

So I take it you read very few of my posts here and certainly did not read the actual court ruling, am I right?
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Napoleon
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« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2014, 08:56:53 PM »
« Edited: February 21, 2014, 09:01:03 PM by Napoleon »

So I take it you read very few of my posts here and certainly did not read the actual court ruling, am I right?

Nope. I read all of them! Cheesy

I'm astonished that you can read so much and understand so little, if that's the case. Which of these key words did you miss?

The Chief Justice delivers the unanimous opinion of the Court.

Statement of Facts

Article V, Section 2, Clause 1 of the Constitution states in part that
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Article VIII, Clause 11 of the Southeast Constitution, however, states in part that
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Ruling

Independently of the outcome this discrepancy may incur on the results of any regional elections conducted within the Southeast, or indeed the intended scope of relevant disputed statute, this inconsistency is plainly unconstitutional and reflects an attempt on the part of the Southeast to usurp the authority of the federal government to determine voter registration standards. As these minimum requirements have been ratified by national referendum through the constitutional amendment process, they apply to all regions due to the simple fact that voter registration is handled federally.  The Southeast does not have its own Secretary to handle regional voter registration, nor should it; under the logic that the region may bar federally registered voters from participating in its elections, it would also be able to register voters who are not yet eligible to register federally.  Rather than allow for the potential complications that may result in a dual system of voter registration, the constitution makes it clear in no uncertain terms that this is a duty to be undertaken exclusively by the federal government.

We rule the 50 post voting requirement in the Southeast constitution to be in direct violation of the constitution and accordingly strike it down, and order any voters disenfranchised by this unconstitutional provision to have their ballots counted.

Here is the relevant statement of facts:
Vote Sanctity Act: A voter who edits his ballot any length of time after it has been posted in the voting booth thread for any Northeast Election nullifies it. Election authorities shall not count a ballot altered in the above manner.

Supremacy Act: To give primacy to federal  law over regional law.Section 1.The Northeast acknowledges that the federal constitution is the supreme law of the land and agrees to use all standards and regulations, including election law, set forth in the  federal constitution and statutes as the minimum standard for Northeast laws and statutes. Section 2.In cases where Northeast and federal law conflict, the federal law shall have supremacy.

As federal law clearly states "Persons who edit the post in which their vote(s) are contained at the place of voting after twenty minutes shall have their vote counted as void."

The Supremacy Act prevents the Northeast from using a thirty minute edit period, but as it says "minimum standard" the region is still allowed to enforce stricter regulations. The federal law does not guarantee a right to edit your vote within twenty minutes, only mandating that any votes edited past the 20 are void.

Explain how these are the same.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2014, 09:12:03 PM »

I've already mentioned that the Supremacy Act, although inspired by Chief Justice Ebowed's decision and the principles behind it, does not limit itself to voter registration.

In its own words, the Supremacy Act applies to "all standards and regulations, including election law." I mentioned Ebowed's decision to illustrate why I dispute your interpretation of what it means to use federal laws as a "minimum standard."

I understand what you're trying to argue, I'm just trying to get you to actually argue it. Ebowed's decision was centered around a region effectively setting up a second system of voter registration and therefore in violation of federal supremacy. Can you explain your argument in the context of "due to the simple fact that (issue X) is handled federally"?
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cinyc
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« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2014, 09:44:58 PM »

According to Governor Sirnick, the Supremacy Act doesn't change anything. It only codifies and acknowledges that federal voting regulations trump regional laws, as the Supreme Court ruled in Atlasia v. IDS (2013).

As that ruling struck down a fifty-post requirement for voting eligibility in the Southeast, which was stricter than the federal requirement at the time, it makes sense to interpret "minimum" as meaning a minimum standard of inclusiveness, i.e. if a vote is valid under federal law it is also valid under regional law.

Where is this so-called Supremacy Act?  I can't find it on the Wiki.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2014, 09:47:46 PM »

According to Governor Sirnick, the Supremacy Act doesn't change anything. It only codifies and acknowledges that federal voting regulations trump regional laws, as the Supreme Court ruled in Atlasia v. IDS (2013).

As that ruling struck down a fifty-post requirement for voting eligibility in the Southeast, which was stricter than the federal requirement at the time, it makes sense to interpret "minimum" as meaning a minimum standard of inclusiveness, i.e. if a vote is valid under federal law it is also valid under regional law.

Where is this so-called Supremacy Act?  I can't find it on the Wiki.

I posted the entire text above. I think its on page 10 of regional governments. Matt was speaker.
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2014, 03:19:16 AM »
« Edited: February 22, 2014, 07:52:55 AM by butafly »

President - First Round
30 Duke/Matt (SWE, Lumine, Tmth, TheCranberry, Frodo, Scott, Goldwater, Franzl, butafly, badger, oakvale, sirnick, Marokai, Grumps, Mr. X, Cris, Devin, benconstine, Fritz, TDAS04, Superique, Dereich, Oak Hills, BaconBacon96, Ebowed, MasterJedi, Snowguy, sjoyce, Flo, smoltchanov)
23 TNF/Gass (TNF, AFJ, bore, Tyrion, Snowstalker, Mechaman, hawkeye59, windjammer, adam obawesomebiberg, Brewer, homelycooking, DemPGH, Nix, Progressive Realist, Xahar, Njall, MalaspinaGold, MATTROSE94, Arturo Belano, morgieb, badgate, Ogre Mage, Antonio)
20 Spiral/Dallasfan (Spiral, Winfield, Reaganfan, Cathcon, spamage, Kreitzer, ElectionsGuy, Napoleon, shua, Mordecai, Small L, NHI, Deus, Cassius, DC Al Fine, outofbox6, cinyc, Foucaulf, Jbrase, ZuWo)
*1 EarlAW (EarlAW)

Second Round
46 Duke/Matt (SWE, Lumine, Tmth, TheCranberry, Frodo, Scott, Goldwater, Franzl, butafly, badger, oakvale, sirnick, Marokai, Grumps, Mr. X, Cris, Devin, benconstine, Fritz, TDAS04, Superique, Dereich, Oak Hills, BaconBacon96, Ebowed, MasterJedi, Snowguy, sjoyce, Flo, smoltchanov, Spiral, Winfield, Reaganfan, Cathcon, spamage, Kreitzer, ElectionsGuy, shua, Mordecai, NHI, Deus, Cassius, DC Al Fine, outofbox6, cinyc, ZuWo)
26 TNF/Gass (TNF, AFJ, bore, Tyrion, Snowstalker, Mechaman, hawkeye59, windjammer, adam obawesomebiberg, Brewer, homelycooking, DemPGH, Nix, Progressive Realist, Xahar, Njall, MalaspinaGold, MATTROSE94, Arturo Belano, morgieb, badgate, Ogre Mage, Antonio, Napoleon, Small L, EarlAW)
Spiral/Dallasfan
*EarlAW
2 exhausted (Foucaulf, Jbrase)


Northeast Senate - First Round
9 Bore (AFJ, butafly, bore, sirnick, Mr. X, Napoleon, Nix, MATTROSE94, BaconBacon96)
8 Poirot (SWE, Winfield, Goldwater, homelycooking, NHI, Deus, cinyc, smoltchanov)
*1 EarlAW (EarlAW)


Midwest Senate - First Round
9 TNF (TNF, Marokai, hawkeye59, windjammer, adam obawesomebiberg, Brewer, Snowguy, Foucaulf, Arturo Belano)
6 Lumine (Lumine, Tmth, spamage, Cris, Fritz, TDAS04)


Mideast Senate - First Round
12 DC Al Fine (Spiral, Reaganfan, Frodo, Cathcon, Kreitzer, ElectionsGuy, shua, Mordecai, Cassius, DC Al Fine, outofbox6, MasterJedi)
*3 Franzl (Franzl, badger, Snowstalker)
*2 Benconstine (benconstine, Njall)


Pacific Senate - First Round
13 Tyrion (TheCranberry, Tyrion, oakvale, Devin, DemPGH, Superique, Progressive Realist, Xahar, Ebowed, morgieb, Flo, Ogre Mage, Antonio)


IDS Senate - First Round
6 North Carolina Yankee (Scott, Small L, Dereich, Oak Hills, Jbrase, sjoyce)
1 NOTA (badgate)
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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Junior Chimp
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« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2014, 03:27:43 AM »

Northeast Assembly - First Round

4 cinyc (Grumps, Nix, cinyc, smoltchanov)
3 (5?) SWE (SWE, butafly, Mr. X, bore, BaconBacon96)
2 Napoleon (Napoleon, Peeperkorn)
2 Deus (Deus, Goldwater)
*2 Winfield (Winfield, sirnick)
0 Branden Cordeiro

2 invalid? (butafly, Mr. X)
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2014, 03:34:23 AM »

IDS Leg. Dist. 1 - First Round
3 Small L (Small L, PiT, badgate)

IDS Leg. Dist. 2 - First Round
3 sjoyce (Scott, Oak Hills, sjoyce)
0 Jack Enderman
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badgate
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« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2014, 03:38:21 AM »

What is "NOTA"? Smiley
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2014, 03:41:15 AM »

none of the above (indytx isn't accepting write-ins as far as i know)
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2014, 05:52:20 AM »
« Edited: February 22, 2014, 06:07:42 AM by Adam Griffin »

Turnout by Party:

RGPSad 75% (3/4)
D-R: 66% (6/9)
PRO: 61% 11/18
LAB: 51% (21/41)
FED: 38% (18/47)
CMP: 33% (3/9)
IND: 24% (7/29)
OTH: 21% (3/14)

TOT: 43% (73/171)
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2014, 06:53:17 AM »

added ZuWo's vote to the last count.
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Sec. of State Superique
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« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2014, 07:15:06 AM »

DemPGH is a Laborite, butafly. He changed parties.
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SUSAN CRUSHBONE
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« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2014, 07:50:46 AM »
« Edited: February 22, 2014, 07:53:14 AM by butafly »

DemPGH is a Laborite, butafly. He changed parties.


i'm just going by what the census says.

[edit] added antonio's vote
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