German & Austrian voters support Swiss-style immigration quotas for EU-residents

[Tender Branson]

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...

Germans favor them by a 55-41 margin and Austrians by a 48-41 margin (54-46 among decided voters -> "referendum question").

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Anschluss Mk. II? Someone had to say it.

[Tender Branson]

     Anschluss Mk. II? Someone had to say it.

Yes, but this time annexation to Switzerland (because they made the ball roll) ...

Germans and Austrians in general are favourable towards Swiss-style direct democracy and sceptical towards an increasing centralism that is forced down our throats from Brussels ...

[Franzl]

I strongly oppose any further direct democratic elements.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I strongly oppose any further direct democratic elements.

Yeah. People are just too stupid.

[dead0man]

I fully support mandatory voting everywhere.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I fully support mandatory voting everywhere.

I see no contradiction here, may you enlighten me?

[Hifly]

I strongly oppose any further direct democratic elements.

Yeah. People are just too stupid.

This won't affect you because you are not a German citizen- just because people hold a different opinion does not make them stupid.

[dead0man]

I fully support mandatory voting everywhere.

I see no contradiction here, may you enlighten me?

Let me see if I got this right...
Franzl is against further direct democratic elements
You agree and add that people are stupid
I assume you mean stupid people voting gives us stupid laws and that you, like any sane person would be against that.  I recalled that you were recently praising mandatory voting so I go copy that post hoping for either a "gotcha!" or some further explaining from you.

Perhaps I missread some sarcasm somewhere?  Maybe I'm just missing something due to my ignorance?

[Antonio the Sixth]

I fail to see how the two issues are in any way related. There's no need to have a high opinion of voters' intelligence or to believe that they would enact good laws to support mandatory voting. Supporting direct democracy, however, requires at least some degree of the above considerations.

[dead0man]

I guess the root of my problem is that I can not understand why somebody would be for mandatory voting.  Stranger still if you think the average human is "too stupid".

[Franzl]

I fail to see how the two issues are in any way related. There's no need to have a high opinion of voters' intelligence or to believe that they would enact good laws to support mandatory voting. Supporting direct democracy, however, requires at least some degree of the above considerations.

Have to agree with deadman here. It's not necessarilly logically inconsistent (if one looks at democracy the way you do), but I think it's reasonable to oppose direct democracy and mandatory voting for the same reason.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The point is that non-voters are not significantly dumber than voters. In fact, in certain cases (especially very politically oriented referendums like this one) the opposite might be true.

[dead0man]

The point is that non-voters are not significantly dumber than voters.

Probably true, but, I would assume, non-voters are probably more ignorant on the "issues" and are, by definition, more apathetic towards politics.

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I seriously doubt it.

[ingemann]

Direct democracy are general a bad idea, not because people are stupid, but because issues tend to be much more complex than people expect. The Swiss quota referendum are a good example, at first it doesn't seem a big deal, until you look at the factors that any attempt to set up such quota, will annul the treaties which give the Swiss access to European markets. It would not have been a big problem if EU needed Switzerland, but because they don't really need them, the Swiss can serve as a useful object lesson for EU members in how much EU removal of custom barriers means. Of course the Swiss will likely find something to give EU to make them accept the quotas, they're not idiots, and they know precisely what the access to European markets means to them.
 

[Antonio the Sixth]

non-voters are probably more ignorant on the "issues"

Nope. You'd be surprised by how ignorant voters can be.

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And the solution is to force them stop being apathetic.

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I seriously doubt it.[/quote]

Referendums like these mobilize nutjobs much more easily than regular people with balanced views. Nutjobs are very passionate about their nutty beliefs, and will turn out in droves when they have a chance to affirm them.

[Franzl]

You can't "force" people to be less apathetic. You act like making people show up to vote will suddenly cause them to inform themselves when they often have no interest in it all. You can't force people to care.

[Beezer]

The point is that non-voters are not significantly dumber than voters. In fact, in certain cases (especially very politically oriented referendums like this one) the opposite might be true.

Non-voters are by and large far less politically interested than voters. That's why I'm opposed to forcing them to the ballot box, after all these people quite often don't even know what the f'ing parties stand for. And as mentioned above, they won't all of a sudden become interested in politics just because they'll be forced to pay a €50 fine if they don't turn up on election day.

[Heimdal]

I can’t say I’m surprised. People want democratic control over their own border policies.

My impression is that support for the free movement of people, goods, services and capital is strongest among the political and economic elites. Most other people are lukewarm about it.

[Franknburger]

Though it is somewhat rich that the countries at the geographical centre of the EU, as such naturally profiting most from free movement of goods and services, now want to deny people from the periphery the possibility to balance their geographical disadvantage by moving to the centre. Germany, as seat of the ECB (and Switzerland anyway) are also not really suffering from capital being mover freely...

[Silent Hunter]

In the meantime, the Swiss lose research funds

[Boris]

In the meantime, the Swiss lose research funds

See, this is the sh**t that actually affects people's jobs and livelihood, not "oh, I had a mildly inconvenient time today talking to this person with a thick Brandenburg accent" [is that a thing?].

[MaxQue]

At the same time, German and Austrian voters expressing support for a racist idea isn't exactly a novelty.

[Tender Branson]

At the same time, German and Austrian voters expressing support for a racist idea isn't exactly a novelty.

That analysis is too simple I think:

Setting immigration quotas is not racist. It has more to do with streamlining immigration to a point that is good for the economy, but does not strain infrastructure such as traffic and housing (high immigration could lead to explosions in rents and property prices, as well as shortages of apartments in general, because the building speed does not catch up with massive immigration).

Therefore, I support that the EU "free-movement policy" is amended so that if for example immigration/population growth tops 0.5% for 2 consecutive years in a 5 year time-span, a country would be free to set immigration quotas to protect the domestic economy and local communities from the problems above + wage dumping.

Also: If I remember correctly, even the country you live in (Canada) has immigration quotas and handpicks skilled workers. So, it must be racist too, right ?

[Antonio the Sixth]

If the Germans and Austrians can feel free to violate the Schengen agreements, they'd better shut up if Italy or Greece does the same regarding the austerity treaties.