SENATE BILL: An Actual End to Imperialism Act (Failed)

[Sopranos Republican]

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8. Effective upon the passage of this legislation, investment by the Republic of Atlasia or any corporate entity chartered or headquartered in the Republic of Atlasia in the State of Israel is hereby banned.
     8a. Any and all sales of any product to the Israeli armed forces or Israeli police is likewise banned upon the passage of this legislation.
     8b. Atlasian banks may not make loans to Israel or any Israeli institution, effective upon the passage of this legislation.
     8c. Agricultural goods, textiles, meat, steel, iron, uranium, and the products of state-owned companies made in Israel shall be prohibited from entering the Republic of Atlasia and any area in which it has jurisdictional authority, effective upon the passage of this legislation.
9. Effective upon the passage of this legislation, members of the armed forces shall have the right to organize unions and shall be party to all existing and future labor legislation.
10. Effective upon the passage of this legislation, unmanned aerial surveillance drones shall be banned from use by police departments, the armed forces of the Republic of Atlasia, and intelligence agencies in any area subject to the jurisdictional authority of the Republic of Atlasia.
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Sponsor: Senator TNF

Senator, you may begin advocating for this. Yankee, this is going in the executive slot as agreed upon.

[TNF]

This bill cuts military spending to more reasonable levels, given our lack of real enemies abroad and relative international peace, while also placing limits upon the actions of internal and external security agencies that are badly needed. A lot of it is probably too much for the taste of the Senate, which is all well and good because it at least provides for discussion fodder on the best way to go about reducing our military footprint abroad and ending the permanent war economy that has developed since the end of World War II.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I thought we agreed to the FP Slot.

Whatever, doesn't matter. We can move it if we need to.

[Goldwater]

Well, I disagree with almost the entirety of this bill, but I'll see if I can amend out some of the worst parts.


I'll start by offering an an amendment to strike out the part about ending all trade and business with Isreal:

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8. Effective upon the passage of this legislation, investment by the Republic of Atlasia or any corporate entity chartered or headquartered in the Republic of Atlasia in the State of Israel is hereby banned.
     8a. Any and all sales of any product to the Israeli armed forces or Israeli police is likewise banned upon the passage of this legislation.
     8b. Atlasian banks may not make loans to Israel or any Israeli institution, effective upon the passage of this legislation.
     8c. Agricultural goods, textiles, meat, steel, iron, uranium, and the products of state-owned companies made in Israel shall be prohibited from entering the Republic of Atlasia and any area in which it has jurisdictional authority, effective upon the passage of this legislation.
9. 8. Effective upon the passage of this legislation, members of the armed forces shall have the right to organize unions and shall be party to all existing and future labor legislation.
10. 9. Effective upon the passage of this legislation, unmanned aerial surveillance drones shall be banned from use by police departments, the armed forces of the Republic of Atlasia, and intelligence agencies in any area subject to the jurisdictional authority of the Republic of Atlasia.
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[TNF]

Strongly object.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

A number of things in this bill I support, and I number I oppose, so I'll have a few amendments. 

Does anyone have any idea how much debt our government holds from developing nations?

[Sec. of State Superique]

I had no time yet to review all this bill but I do have a suggestion after a quick look on the issue of Debt Pardon matter. Let's not forget that debt pardon means that we loose a lot of money, but even so, I will propose a thing that the terrible Jesse Helms proposed. He used the example of Israel but I will use a generic country.

Instead of issuing a pardon of their debts, I suggest that we implement a phased transition, reducing foreign aid for many countries while bargaining a debt reduction. That would be smarter than an outright change without precedents in our economy and in the Global Economy. Let's not forget that doing this would also mean reducing our soft power and our important place on the global scenario, something that I do not think that is actually good but that I would accept if it was the decision of our legislative power.

That sums up my feelings for now, but I will try to contribute more during this week.
Let's not forget that countries not committed with democracy such as China, are becoming significantly powerful and de-escalating everything could be interpreted as a green light for a more intrusive Chinese Government. Hence, if we are considering in anyway a change on the way we deal with other countries foreign debts, then we shall create at least some requirements for granting the benefits of a debt reduction. Commitment with Democracy, proven Human Rights record and commitment for world peace needs to be crucial. I'm not a fond of imposing an economical receipt but a Humanitarian Receipt must be taken.

Now, many people say that we have too much troops in Germany and in Japan, but we must consider that we are not in Pre-Atlasian years anymore and our troops may not be that big. Moreover, we cannot leave Japan without protection. This is a de-militarized nation dealing with tensions coming from North Corea and China and I would still be afraid of reducing troops their. Maybe we should give more powers to Japan but I'm still worried about having a Japanese Military as well.



 

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

There is no way I can support such a substantial reduction in our military strength. We can find savings, but we still have an obligation to defend our country and part of that involves a sufficient deterrent whereby we avoid engaging and provoking conflicts, but we certainly have the power to win such if it comes to that.

There are many bad actors in the world, people who seek power, respect only force and are not guided by anything else. I also think it is a mistake to completely abandon regime change efforts. Rather then standing up dictators like in the past though (Iran 1953 or Chile 1973), we should instead move to build up pro-democracy forces through education and possibly humitarian aid supplied covertly for years and thus mapping out of the players before the critical moment approaches as well as building up pro-Atlasian sentiments amongst those who would form a post-Revolution gov't.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

After the vote on Senator Goldwater's amendment, I plan to introduce my own amendment.  I don't mind having some major spending cuts (I will have to examine the numbers here later), but I can't support sections 1-6 or section 8 (Sections 2, 5, 6, and 8 are the most problematic).  I also have concerns about sections 9 (what if we're at war, we can't just have soldiers going on strike) and 10 (for better or worse, drones have proven to be a valuable tool to take out the leaders of terrorist groups and if used responsibly by the military, they can reduce the number of soldiers whose lives have to be put at risk).  However, I agree that police departments have no business using drones and that intelligence agencies should be under the jurisdictional authority of Atlasia.  

Section 1: I think this sets a really bad precedent.  Maybe we can forgive the debt with a number of strings attached, but we need to get something big out of it from each country in question if we are to do this.

Section 2: I'd support this in a perfect world, but the fact is that sometimes the CIA does need to do this to protect Atlasian interests.  Should there be more restraint and oversight regarding when and perhaps even how our intelligence agencies can interfere with other countries, and should this be a last resort?  Absolutely, but I don't think I'm being unreasonable in saying that we need to keep our options open and sometimes you need to get your hands dirty.  That said, a lot of what we did in the Cold War such as helping assassinate Patrice Lumumba (the Congo's only hope for a brighter future), the overthrow of Mohammed Mossadegh (wanted to make Iran a true democracy, but believed Iranians should be the chief beneficiaries of their country's oil resources), bringing Pinochet to power, etc was completely unacceptable.  However, this section goes too far.  I would support requiring more oversight of our intelligence agencies actions regarding involvement in other countries, but the section as it currently exists is a deal-breaker

Section 3: Why eliminate this industry when we could simply try to regulate it more effectively?  

Section 4: Our military bases in other countries should be considered on a case-by-case basis.  Some are unnecessary, but many others are critical.  This issue isn't an all-or-nothing one (btw, I agree with Secretary Superique about the need for some troops in Japan).

Section 5: This smacks of isolationism and will do nothing except encourage our allies to align themselves with our enemies and/or feel they can't count on us to have their backs.

Section 6: Again, in a perfect world I'd be fine with this.  However, as long as other countries have WMDs, we should too.  It is important leverage.  I am fine with cutting our nuclear weapons stockpile to around 350-400 (it is currently believed to be between 800 and 1,200 IRL).  However, we need to have enough that if another country (although Russia is the only other country with enough nukes to really end the world, China may well get there in the future) launches a nuclear strike against us that we can wipe them and their allies of the face of the earth with a retaliatory strike even if we lose some nukes in the strike.  Foreign policy that only adopts an idealistic approach without considering whether said approach is pragmatic and/or advances one's interests is suicide.

Section 8: All due respect to Senator TNF, but I almost don't even know where to start with this section.  Even if Senator TNF doesn't approve of the way Israel handles the Palestinians, when you don't agree with one of your best friends, you tell them privately.  You don't tell them to go f*** themselves in front of a bunch of people, hit them with a car, and leave them for dead in a ditch.  And remember, the Palestinians are the ones who time and time again have turned down every Israeli proposal for peace.  Barak even offered them their own country consisting of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, a piece of land connecting the two aforementioned areas, custodianship of the Temple Mount, and administration of the Christian and Muslim quarters of the Old City.  The Palestinians rejected this because they would only accept a Palestinian state consisting of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Israel.  Quite frankly, I don't think one can even make a reasonable argument for this section.  All this section does is reward the Palestinians for constantly trying to undermine any efforts to achieve peace in the area and for targeting innocent civilians with suicide bombings.  Actually, it does do one other thing.  It also punishes Israel for generally being extremely committed to peace and for the country's willingness to respect the political rights of its Palestinian citizens.

[Napoleon]

Regardless of how one may feel about the CIA and its.. dubious...history, slashing our intelligence budget sk significantly will be harmful to our position on the international stage. As the author of the original End to Imperialism Act, I sympathize with the sentiments expressed in this bill but undermining our intelligence capabilities is dangerous. During my Presidency we tore down and reconstructed how this data is processed and we transitioned from a foundation of force to a foundation of intelligence. Therefore, as odd as it may sound, diminishing our intelligence gathering will be a threat to globalnpeace. I encourage this Senate to keep CIA funding at current levels or greater.

[Napoleon]

Also I am not sure about our laws against prosecuting leakers but I have some information about Israel I learned during my presidency that the senate may want to consider before they offer the expected kneejerk reaction...this nation is not a friend or ally.

[Sec. of State Superique]

Also I am not sure about our laws against prosecuting leakers but I have some information about Israel I learned during my presidency that the senate may want to consider before they offer the expected kneejerk reaction...this nation is not a friend or ally.

I'm not sure of what you are talking about and I don't even know how you got those "informations" but you acknowledge that Netanyahu is not the Prime-Minister of Israel anymore, do you?

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Also I am not sure about our laws against prosecuting leakers but I have some information about Israel I learned during my presidency that the senate may want to consider before they offer the expected kneejerk reaction...this nation is not a friend or ally.

With all due respect, I don't think we should be basing policy on hearsay.  If you want to testify before the Senate, surely there is some way you can do that.

[Sec. of State Superique]

Also I am not sure about our laws against prosecuting leakers but I have some information about Israel I learned during my presidency that the senate may want to consider before they offer the expected kneejerk reaction...this nation is not a friend or ally.

With all due respect, I don't think we should be basing policy on hearsay.  If you want to testify before the Senate, surely there is some way you can do that.

We shall not start this before peace talks are over.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Start what?

Also I am not sure about our laws against prosecuting leakers but I have some information about Israel I learned during my presidency that the senate may want to consider before they offer the expected kneejerk reaction...this nation is not a friend or ally.

With all due respect, I don't think we should be basing policy on hearsay.  If you want to testify before the Senate, surely there is some way you can do that.

There was, it was called the National Security Committee. It was abolished last summer.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I'm fine gradually cutting our military budget is certain places, but as I explained last time we had this debate (wasn't it recently? Or was it years ago?), these massive cuts all at once will not only hurt us abroad, but have a huge impact on our economy as well.

I would also like to keep our intelligence agencies' budgets at their current levels, but I am always supporting of increasing humanitarian aid.

Lots of things here. I will let the debate play out and contribute as I can.

[Talleyrand]

I've taken a brief look through this bill and I'm fairly comfortable with most of the provisions. It has my support.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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8. Effective upon the passage of this legislation, investment by the Republic of Atlasia or any corporate entity chartered or headquartered in the Republic of Atlasia in the State of Israel is hereby banned.
     8a. Any and all sales of any product to the Israeli armed forces or Israeli police is likewise banned upon the passage of this legislation.
     8b. Atlasian banks may not make loans to Israel or any Israeli institution, effective upon the passage of this legislation.
     8c. Agricultural goods, textiles, meat, steel, iron, uranium, and the products of state-owned companies made in Israel shall be prohibited from entering the Republic of Atlasia and any area in which it has jurisdictional authority, effective upon the passage of this legislation.
9. 8. Effective upon the passage of this legislation, members of the armed forces shall have the right to organize unions and shall be party to all existing and future labor legislation.
10. 9. Effective upon the passage of this legislation, unmanned aerial surveillance drones shall be banned from use by police departments, the armed forces of the Republic of Atlasia, and intelligence agencies in any area subject to the jurisdictional authority of the Republic of Atlasia.
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Sponsor Feedback: Hostile
Status: A vote is now open on the above amendment, Senators please vote Aye, NAy or Abstain.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Aye

[President Tyrion]

Nay

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Aye

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

AYE

[Goldwater]

AYE

[TNF]

Nay

[bore]

Aye

I don't want to commit to anything unless it becomes clear that negotiations aren't going anywhere.