SENATE BILL: Senate Resolution on the 2014 Crimean Crisis (Amendment Vote)
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  SENATE BILL: Senate Resolution on the 2014 Crimean Crisis (Amendment Vote)
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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: Senate Resolution on the 2014 Crimean Crisis (Amendment Vote)  (Read 3831 times)
Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2014, 02:01:31 AM »

Reluctant Nay


I do agree to some extent with the trade sanctions portion (from what I have heard this is miniscule and would do nothing) and with removing the full support line.

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TNF
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« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2014, 09:20:33 AM »

Aye

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Talleyrand
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« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2014, 09:31:05 AM »

Aye, but I think we can push back to a middle ground
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bore
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« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2014, 01:01:18 PM »

Aye
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2014, 07:02:47 AM »

This vote can be ended this afternoon. It appears tied and if that doesn't change the VP will have to break the tie.
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windjammer
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« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2014, 04:51:51 PM »

First they came for the Georgians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Georgian.

Then they came for Crimeans, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Crimean.

Then they came for East Ukrainians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not East Ukrainian.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

...
Please Senators, don't let the Russians, a folk of alcoholic homophobic, take Crimee. Just because the True Leftists here can't criticize Moscow because of its communist past. And the new governor in Ukraine isn't nazi, that's definitely a blatant lie.
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Maxwell
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« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2014, 05:09:42 PM »

First they came for the Georgians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Georgian.

Then they came for Crimeans, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Crimean.

Then they came for East Ukrainians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not East Ukrainian.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

...
Please Senators, don't let the Russians, a folk of alcoholic homophobic, take Crimee. Just because the True Leftists here can't criticize Moscow because of its communist past. And the new governor in Ukraine isn't nazi, that's definitely a blatant lie.

Um... what?
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windjammer
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« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2014, 05:11:07 PM »

First they came for the Georgians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Georgian.

Then they came for Crimeans, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Crimean.

Then they came for East Ukrainians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not East Ukrainian.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

...
Please Senators, don't let the Russians, a folk of alcoholic homophobic, take Crimee. Just because the True Leftists here can't criticize Moscow because of its communist past. And the new governor in Ukraine isn't nazi, that's definitely a blatant lie.

Um... what?
Have you seen Snowstalkers's past comments?
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Maxwell
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« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2014, 05:14:27 PM »

First they came for the Georgians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Georgian.

Then they came for Crimeans, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Crimean.

Then they came for East Ukrainians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not East Ukrainian.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

...
Please Senators, don't let the Russians, a folk of alcoholic homophobic, take Crimee. Just because the True Leftists here can't criticize Moscow because of its communist past. And the new governor in Ukraine isn't nazi, that's definitely a blatant lie.

Um... what?
Have you seen Snowstalkers's past comments?

Snowstalker is not representative of True Leftists on this site.
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windjammer
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« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2014, 05:20:45 PM »

First they came for the Georgians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Georgian.

Then they came for Crimeans, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Crimean.

Then they came for East Ukrainians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not East Ukrainian.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

...
Please Senators, don't let the Russians, a folk of alcoholic homophobic, take Crimee. Just because the True Leftists here can't criticize Moscow because of its communist past. And the new governor in Ukraine isn't nazi, that's definitely a blatant lie.

Um... what?
Have you seen Snowstalkers's past comments?

Snowstalker is not representative of True Leftists on this site.
Maybe not, but he seems to use the same logic than TNF here; "AAAAAAARGH, the new ukrainian government is full of nazis".
And yes, I tend to believe that the far-left seem to face some difficulties to condemn openly Russia. See Mélenchon in France. Maybe TNF could explain why he's so opposed to defend a country who is being oppressed by a dictatorship?
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Lumine
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« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2014, 07:10:37 PM »

What, exactly, does "full support" of Ukraine entail? I wouldn't necessarily object to retaining this language in the bill, but you should probably spell out more clearly what kind of limits there are to this level of support, if any. Making promises that we don't intend to keep would be a blow to Atlasia's international credibility.


The "full support" line was meant as a mostly symbolic statement (given that the resolution is designed to give the SoEA and the Special Envoy enough ground to maneuver) in that we stand with Ukraine, but I perfectly understand that it might prove too ambiguous in the current context. If the amendment passes or fails, I will introduce a new amendment stating the limits of our support to Ukraine. If the amendment passes and it strikes down the heavy trade sanctions, I will go with Special Envoy SJoyce's suggestions (on the first page), and I will probably talk about the possibility of war (which is doubtful, I know) as well.
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TNF
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« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2014, 10:58:40 AM »

First they came for the Georgians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Georgian.

Then they came for Crimeans, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Crimean.

Then they came for East Ukrainians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not East Ukrainian.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

...
Please Senators, don't let the Russians, a folk of alcoholic homophobic, take Crimee. Just because the True Leftists here can't criticize Moscow because of its communist past. And the new governor in Ukraine isn't nazi, that's definitely a blatant lie.

Um... what?
Have you seen Snowstalkers's past comments?

Snowstalker is not representative of True Leftists on this site.
Maybe not, but he seems to use the same logic than TNF here; "AAAAAAARGH, the new ukrainian government is full of nazis".
And yes, I tend to believe that the far-left seem to face some difficulties to condemn openly Russia. See Mélenchon in France. Maybe TNF could explain why he's so opposed to defend a country who is being oppressed by a dictatorship?

The fact that my amendment doesn't cut out the condemnation of Russia speaks volumes as to my position here. I do strongly condemn Russia for it's violation of Ukrainian sovereignty. That being said, I do not think that it is the business of Atlasia to get involved here beyond condemnation. Our involvement will only heighten tensions with Russia and make things worse. Again, I'm not about to "give my full support" to a government led around by the nose by armed neo-Nazis, either.
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Goldwater
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« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2014, 11:26:06 AM »

First they came for the Georgians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Georgian.

Then they came for Crimeans, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Crimean.

Then they came for East Ukrainians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not East Ukrainian.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

...
Please Senators, don't let the Russians, a folk of alcoholic homophobic, take Crimee. Just because the True Leftists here can't criticize Moscow because of its communist past. And the new governor in Ukraine isn't nazi, that's definitely a blatant lie.

Um... what?
Have you seen Snowstalkers's past comments?

Snowstalker is not representative of True Leftists on this site.
Maybe not, but he seems to use the same logic than TNF here; "AAAAAAARGH, the new ukrainian government is full of nazis".
And yes, I tend to believe that the far-left seem to face some difficulties to condemn openly Russia. See Mélenchon in France. Maybe TNF could explain why he's so opposed to defend a country who is being oppressed by a dictatorship?

The fact that my amendment doesn't cut out the condemnation of Russia speaks volumes as to my position here. I do strongly condemn Russia for it's violation of Ukrainian sovereignty. That being said, I do not think that it is the business of Atlasia to get involved here beyond condemnation. Our involvement will only heighten tensions with Russia and make things worse. Again, I'm not about to "give my full support" to a government led around by the nose by armed neo-Nazis, either.

What good does saying you "strongly condemn" something do if you aren't actually willing to get involved and do anything about it?
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Napoleon
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« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2014, 12:32:18 PM »

Windjammer is simply the best.
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windjammer
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« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2014, 12:59:23 PM »

Purple heart

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shua
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« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2014, 05:10:42 PM »

Aye
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TNF
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« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2014, 11:09:16 AM »

First they came for the Georgians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Georgian.

Then they came for Crimeans, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Crimean.

Then they came for East Ukrainians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not East Ukrainian.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

...
Please Senators, don't let the Russians, a folk of alcoholic homophobic, take Crimee. Just because the True Leftists here can't criticize Moscow because of its communist past. And the new governor in Ukraine isn't nazi, that's definitely a blatant lie.

Um... what?
Have you seen Snowstalkers's past comments?

Snowstalker is not representative of True Leftists on this site.
Maybe not, but he seems to use the same logic than TNF here; "AAAAAAARGH, the new ukrainian government is full of nazis".
And yes, I tend to believe that the far-left seem to face some difficulties to condemn openly Russia. See Mélenchon in France. Maybe TNF could explain why he's so opposed to defend a country who is being oppressed by a dictatorship?

The fact that my amendment doesn't cut out the condemnation of Russia speaks volumes as to my position here. I do strongly condemn Russia for it's violation of Ukrainian sovereignty. That being said, I do not think that it is the business of Atlasia to get involved here beyond condemnation. Our involvement will only heighten tensions with Russia and make things worse. Again, I'm not about to "give my full support" to a government led around by the nose by armed neo-Nazis, either.

What good does saying you "strongly condemn" something do if you aren't actually willing to get involved and do anything about it?

Because quite frankly we should not be involved nor should we "do anything about it" beyond condemn the action of Russia for what it is - a gross violation of international law. It would not be wise to risk armed confrontation with Russia for the sake of ensuring the survival of a fascist-aligned government in Ukraine.
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Lumine
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« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2014, 11:40:15 AM »

First they came for the Georgians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Georgian.

Then they came for Crimeans, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Crimean.

Then they came for East Ukrainians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not East Ukrainian.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

...
Please Senators, don't let the Russians, a folk of alcoholic homophobic, take Crimee. Just because the True Leftists here can't criticize Moscow because of its communist past. And the new governor in Ukraine isn't nazi, that's definitely a blatant lie.

Um... what?
Have you seen Snowstalkers's past comments?

Snowstalker is not representative of True Leftists on this site.
Maybe not, but he seems to use the same logic than TNF here; "AAAAAAARGH, the new ukrainian government is full of nazis".
And yes, I tend to believe that the far-left seem to face some difficulties to condemn openly Russia. See Mélenchon in France. Maybe TNF could explain why he's so opposed to defend a country who is being oppressed by a dictatorship?

The fact that my amendment doesn't cut out the condemnation of Russia speaks volumes as to my position here. I do strongly condemn Russia for it's violation of Ukrainian sovereignty. That being said, I do not think that it is the business of Atlasia to get involved here beyond condemnation. Our involvement will only heighten tensions with Russia and make things worse. Again, I'm not about to "give my full support" to a government led around by the nose by armed neo-Nazis, either.

What good does saying you "strongly condemn" something do if you aren't actually willing to get involved and do anything about it?

Because quite frankly we should not be involved nor should we "do anything about it" beyond condemn the action of Russia for what it is - a gross violation of international law. It would not be wise to risk armed confrontation with Russia for the sake of ensuring the survival of a fascist-aligned government in Ukraine.

We gave Ukraine our assurances back in 1994 with the Budapest Memorandum that we would actually do something about it in case something like this happens so their territorial integrity and dignity was not violated by Russia. I don't view our involvement just for the sake of the current government, I view it as standing up and keeping our promises while showing a compromise to the respect of international law. We condemn them, sure, but taking absolutely no action (not even the somewhat symbolic trade sanctions that wouldn't cause armed confrontation) is not something I would recommend as a sucessful foreign policy move.

I understand the concerns, and the belief that Atlasia should not get involved, but by not doing anything we allow an autoritharian strongman to do what he wants with a sovereign nation, we lose a valuable ally, we prove to the world that our foreign policy is as opportunistic as some believe it is and we break a signed agreement, which could lead to severe consequences in future Non-Proliferation agreements as well.

(Also, since the amendment has passed, I will offer a new amendment once the vote is closed)
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windjammer
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« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2014, 11:49:54 AM »

First they came for the Georgians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Georgian.

Then they came for Crimeans, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not Crimean.

Then they came for East Ukrainians, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not East Ukrainian.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

...
Please Senators, don't let the Russians, a folk of alcoholic homophobic, take Crimee. Just because the True Leftists here can't criticize Moscow because of its communist past. And the new governor in Ukraine isn't nazi, that's definitely a blatant lie.

Um... what?
Have you seen Snowstalkers's past comments?

Snowstalker is not representative of True Leftists on this site.
Maybe not, but he seems to use the same logic than TNF here; "AAAAAAARGH, the new ukrainian government is full of nazis".
And yes, I tend to believe that the far-left seem to face some difficulties to condemn openly Russia. See Mélenchon in France. Maybe TNF could explain why he's so opposed to defend a country who is being oppressed by a dictatorship?

The fact that my amendment doesn't cut out the condemnation of Russia speaks volumes as to my position here. I do strongly condemn Russia for it's violation of Ukrainian sovereignty. That being said, I do not think that it is the business of Atlasia to get involved here beyond condemnation. Our involvement will only heighten tensions with Russia and make things worse. Again, I'm not about to "give my full support" to a government led around by the nose by armed neo-Nazis, either.

What good does saying you "strongly condemn" something do if you aren't actually willing to get involved and do anything about it?

Because quite frankly we should not be involved nor should we "do anything about it" beyond condemn the action of Russia for what it is - a gross violation of international law. It would not be wise to risk armed confrontation with Russia for the sake of ensuring the survival of a fascist-aligned government in Ukraine.

Once again, maybe the ukraine government isn't a socialist government like you would do, but THEY ARENT NAZIS.

Well, do nothing, then this folk of alcoholic homophobic will invade the rest of Ukraine, then they will invade Estonia, Lituania,...
You're doing the same mistakes as Europeans with Hitler. You always prefer to play the Pacifist card, then it's too late because dictator will never stop until they are destroyed. Just for what? "Because I don't want to be involved" Wooooooooooow. I just hope the senate isn't full of lolilol pacifists. I will quote Churchill, a sentence he said to Chamberlain after the Munich Agreements: "You were given the choice between war and dishonour. You have chosen dishonour and you will get war".

I can understand some reluctancy to help syrian rebels because they were full of Al Qaeda members. But this is definitely not the case for Ukraine.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2014, 01:22:17 AM »

Vote on Amendment 60:01 by TNF:

Aye (5): bore, DC al fine, Talleyrand, TNF and TyriontheImperialist
Nay (4): Goldwater, Lumine, Mr. X and NC Yankee
Abstain (0):

Didn't Vote (1): shua (voted too late it seems)

The amendment appears to have passed and the VP shall thus declare it as such.
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Lumine
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« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2014, 10:45:18 AM »

Quote
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Alright, here we go again.

In light of recent events, I decided to make it explicit that we maintain the validity of the Budapest memorandum to show our commitment to the treaties and documents we have signed, and to provide further legal basis for this. I have also included a statement in which we do not recognize the "referendum" (regardless of whether it would have passed or not if the election was fair and free, this referendum was illegal), and we won't recognize Crimea as a part of the Russian Federation if Russia accepts their "proposal". On the other side, there no mention of "full support" of the Ukrainian government, but at least we make it clear that Russia is the aggressor.

Despite the fact that I strongly believe in the need for trade sanctions, the Senate is against that part, and since I don't believe anybody here is willing to go to war for Crimea I decided to state that an intervention is not intended. If there's a war between Ukraine and Russia, we have that memorandum, and the President will be free to choose the road. I plan to draft an aid package to Ukraine today or tomorrow separate to this resolution, but I chose to include the immigration idea of Special Envoy SJoyce so we can help minorities like the Tatars from prosecution or discrimination. I wasn't sure if that simple statement will be enough, but I decided to write it anyway.

This will probably require a few changes, but at least it should be able to have more support from the Senate.

Thoughts?
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shua
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« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2014, 01:33:03 PM »

I think it would be best to just say we do not "recognize the annexation of Crimea by Russia," which is what this is, and our position on this would be true even if there were no Budapest Memorandum, given the circumstances.  What we can say about the Budapest Memorandum is urge the Putin regime to abide by it - apart from that I'm not sure what practicality it has.

I'm not sure what is signified by urging the President to use all options available. It sounds like a grant of authority from the Senate, but it's not clearly so.  In any case we should be more specific, and we need to update the goal of such action to the current conditions.
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TNF
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« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2014, 09:27:59 AM »

I object.

"Heavy sanctions" does not forego sanctions altogether, and it really should. Sanctions won't hurt Putin, they'll hurt the average Russian man and woman.
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Lumine
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« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2014, 09:06:11 PM »

I object.

"Heavy sanctions" does not forego sanctions altogether, and it really should. Sanctions won't hurt Putin, they'll hurt the average Russian man and woman.

I guess we could always look back to Abyssinia (actual trade sanctions in oil would have crippled Italy back in 1935), but I guess that example requires actual warfare, which so far has not happened. Given that the trade sanctions are still the most polemic part (and since I dropped the "full support") is "trade sanctions" better?

I think it would be best to just say we do not "recognize the annexation of Crimea by Russia," which is what this is, and our position on this would be true even if there were no Budapest Memorandum, given the circumstances.  What we can say about the Budapest Memorandum is urge the Putin regime to abide by it - apart from that I'm not sure what practicality it has.

I'm not sure what is signified by urging the President to use all options available. It sounds like a grant of authority from the Senate, but it's not clearly so.  In any case we should be more specific, and we need to update the goal of such action to the current conditions.

The Budapest memorandum gives the justification to intervene to defend the integrity of Ukraine, but beyond our formal word to Ukraine it does not force us into an specific course of action. Putin has all but destroyed said agreement, which is why I wanted to state that we still consider it valid. Now, urging the President is another of the symbolic gestures I had in mind, but an actual grant of authority might not be a bad thing here. Do you have any ideas on the  language we could use for it?
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2014, 07:41:09 AM »

Lumine, are you going to offer that text as an amendment?
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