The Atheistic Pro-Life Argument, from Christopher Hitchens

[JRP1994]

What are your thoughts?

"I do, as a humanist, believe that the concept "unborn child" is a real one, and I think the concept is underlined by all the recent findings of embryology about the early viability of the well-conceived human baby - one that isn't going to be critically deformed, or even some that are - would be able to survive outside the womb earlier and earlier and earlier, and I see that date only being pushed back. And I feel a responsibility to consider the occupant of the womb as a candidate member of society in the future. And thus, to say that it cannot be only the responsibility of the woman to decide upon it. It's a social question, and an ethical and moral one. And I say this as someone who has no supernatural beliefs."

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Wow. Never thought I'd agree with Hitchens on anything.

[JRP1994]

Here's the link, by the way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8HhTKzmvas

[AggregateDemand]

Reasonable point, but he's fighting an uphill battle. Violent crime waves throughout history correlate closely with sweeping social regulatory initiatives. US crime rates began plummeting almost exactly 18 years after the Roe v. Wade decision, particularly crime rates in the African American community.

Gun control and overreaching drug regulations appear to have a more profound affect on long term crime rates (both cause crime to increase sharply), but for many people, the impact of Roe v Wade is more than a coincidence. They will never stop campaigning for Planned Parenthood and abortion services, and few people are genuinely motivated to stop them.

[Redalgo]

It is intriguing in an academic way but not at all compelling to me, really.

The unborn is a human being, yes, but has fewer qualities of being a person than mature specimens of many other animal species. Furthermore, the "potential candidate" perspective leads me to ask why is it important to preserve the lives of the unborn - especially in the first and second trimesters - when there is no shortage of American children in need of adoption, foreign children in need of adoption, immigrants who would gladly come here if given the chance, or couples who would have and then raise children of their own if given a greater incentive to do so. I am inclined to say even stray pets and those in animal shelters have a greater moral need for rescuing and nurturing than early embryos.

We are in a world where billions of arguably more deserving lives demand our devoted, caring attention.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

An atheistic pro-life argument is can most certainly be formulated.  I, at a young age, subscribed to one.  However, I am pro-choice now because of a few key reasons.  Note: (I'm against any form of abortion that involves extracting a viable infant and killing it anyway, but things like partial-birth abortion are so rare I find it negligible when talking about the issue in general)

1. I fail to see how it is something that can be regulated by the government.  It's not like abortion didn't happen before Roe v. Wade.  It did, and the outcome was often horrifying.  

2. I very much understand that it is a living homo sapien.  I also understand that it has never seen a thing, barely heard a thing, barely felt a thing, and has an "experience" that is so limited that it is unimaginable.  I'm not willing to give this life form a status equal to myself, or my friends, or my family.  I would consider this to be true up until the 3rd trimester or so.  

3. I'm not a woman.

EDIT: and hell... I really just don't care about this for the most part.  It does not horrify me when I hear about a woman getting an abortion.  I do not judge it.  I do not ask why or worry why.  For me, it's so so so so so damn personal that my judgment has absolutely no place. 

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

It's true, a scientific argument for pro-life is growing. Personally I'm mixed on the subject. I'm sure most people who get abortions are sluts that don't want to/can't handle children and want to keep sleeping around. That's not right.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I find this argument at least interesting, if not completely compelling, and, honestly, my main reason for supporting the legality of (most) abortion is pretty much just the same as the first that HockeyDude lists. Having said that, there's something here to which I feel the need to respond:

It's true, a scientific argument for pro-life is growing. Personally I'm mixed on the subject. I'm sure most people who get abortions are sluts that don't want to/can't handle children and want to keep sleeping around. That's not right.

The correct punctuation is:

'Most people who get abortions are sluts that don't want to/can't handle children and want to keep sleeping around.'
'That's not right.'

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm sure most people who get abortions are sluts that don't want to/can't handle children and want to keep sleeping around. That's not right.

please diaf

OK, that was a bit harsh and uncalled for. I'll give you two options:

1) Try spending some time as a woman, see all the sh*t you go through every day, end up with an unwanted pregnancy for whatever reason, and find yourself discussing the possibility of an abortion. And then, let's see if you change your "views".

2) DIAF

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

I'm sure most people who get abortions are sluts that don't want to/can't handle children and want to keep sleeping around. That's not right.

please diaf

Vile statement, but don't a lot of conservatives say essentially the same thing?

[H. Ross Peron]

More reason why the pro-life POV isn't inherently religious-Scripture itself isn't clear on when human personhood begins (although considering the account of John the Baptist in indicates its sometime in the womb).

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I'm sure most people who get abortions are sluts that don't want to/can't handle children and want to keep sleeping around. That's not right.

please diaf

OK, that was a bit harsh and uncalled for. I'll give you two options:

1) Try spending some time as a woman, see all the sh*t you go through every day, end up with an unwanted pregnancy for whatever reason, and find yourself discussing the possibility of an abortion. And then, let's see if you change your "views".

2) DIAF

And one of those reasons could be that she is a filthy slut. They don't want to be pregnant, just sleep around.

Or if she isn't a slut, then she made the wrong decision not to wait for marriage/a stable relationship.

Whether or not somebody is 'a filthy slut' is a pretty terrible basis for public policy. Out of curiosity, do you think that men who have...whatever amount of sex it takes to make a woman 'a filthy slut' are also filthy sluts?

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

Yes.

But really I'm having the typical Moderate Hero position (only in cases of rape/incest/danger to mother/etc.) right now.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Yes.

I see. Well, we have that, at least.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I see. Your position isn't well served by calling people filthy sluts when debating it.

[tik 🪀✨]

I'm sure most people who get abortions are sluts that don't want to/can't handle children and want to keep sleeping around. That's not right.

I'm sure your argument is based upon a plethora of first-hand experiences with women who have chosen to have an abortion. They tend to rave about them between taking sips of overpriced cocktails as they sit in shady nightclubs. "How was your abortion, Maggie?" "A little on the heavy side this time around, I think next time I'll go in a bit earlier so that I can recover faster and get back to hitting the streets."

Or, maybe, it's usually a decision that weighs on them heavily and they're caught in some kind of indecisive emotional turmoil for perhaps the remainder of their days. Perhaps a smidgeon of empathy is in order?

Imagine you're a woman. I'll let you settle in to that mindset. Ready? You had unprotected sex with your boyfriend thinking that you were unlikely to conceive because of where you are in your cycle. You have been waking up before going to class feeling ill for a few days now. You nervously buy a kit and test yourself at home to find it was what you suspected. You're pregnant. You make an appointment with your doctor to confirm.

Your boyfriend is staunchly anti-abortion, as are your family and many of your friends. But you're on the fence. Right now, you're studying and have invested thousands of dollars into your education. When you start your family, you want to ensure you're able to support it. If you have the baby now, you'll likely be unable to continue your education and will have to wait an indeterminate amount of time before you can continue. In the meantime, all of your savings are invested into this and you don't have the income to properly support your child right now. Neither, really, does your boyfriend and family (who also, incidentally, live on the other side of the country).

You never thought you would ever need to make this decision. Everyone around you would think you're a monster if they discovered that you were even considering it. You don't want to have an abortion, but if you decide to have this child it will throw your life and plans into chaos. If your boyfriend discovers that you had an abortion he would never speak to you again and probably attempt to ruin your reputation for doing something so fundamentally against his belief system. You're also not sure you want to settle down with this guy in the first place, let alone be connected to him for the rest of your life because of this child.

You're scared, and alone, and constantly upset. And to top it off, strangers all over the world have no qualms about spewing about how they think you're a disgusting slut for even being in this position. You'll carry this decision with you for the rest of your life. What do you do?

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm sure most people who get abortions are sluts that don't want to/can't handle children and want to keep sleeping around. That's not right.

please diaf

OK, that was a bit harsh and uncalled for. I'll give you two options:

1) Try spending some time as a woman, see all the sh*t you go through every day, end up with an unwanted pregnancy for whatever reason, and find yourself discussing the possibility of an abortion. And then, let's see if you change your "views".

2) DIAF

And one of those reasons could be that she is a filthy slut. They don't want to be pregnant, just sleep around.

Or if she isn't a slut, then she made the wrong decision not to wait for marriage/a stable relationship.

The whole point of saying "for whatever reason" was trying to explain that the reason (or, more accurately, a pathetically clueless man's understanding of what the reason might be) isn't really what matters in this debate. But I shouldn't be surprised you fail to understand even that basic thing.

[Oldiesfreak1854]

Although I believe abortion is immoral, I consider it more of a human rights issue than a moral one.  The prolife movement has done an awful job of framing their argument like this, and yet it's the main reason why I'm prolife.

[afleitch]

I was a riotously pro-choice Catholic. Now I'm still a pro-choice atheist, but less bombastically. I do understand the humanist argument outlined by Hitchens and others. I see the 'human form' as essentially being fully formed at the point of viability and I find it difficult other than for reasons of compassion of health to support termination beyond that point.

[nclib]

Although I believe abortion is immoral, I consider it more of a human rights issue than a moral one.  The prolife movement has done an awful job of framing their argument like this, and yet it's the main reason why I'm prolife.

I don't agree on abortion, but I agree that if there is a case against (legal) abortion, it would be about the human rights of the fetus, not the moral choices of the woman.

[nclib]

I find this argument at least interesting, if not completely compelling, and, honestly, my main reason for supporting the legality of (most) abortion is pretty much just the same as the first that HockeyDude lists. Having said that, there's something here to which I feel the need to respond:

It's true, a scientific argument for pro-life is growing. Personally I'm mixed on the subject. I'm sure most people who get abortions are sluts that don't want to/can't handle children and want to keep sleeping around. That's not right.

The correct punctuation is:

'Most people who get abortions are sluts that don't want to/can't handle children and want to keep sleeping around.'
'That's not right.'

What's the grammatical difference?

[Bojack Horseman]

It's not a person, it's more of a parasite as it's not viable.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I find this argument at least interesting, if not completely compelling, and, honestly, my main reason for supporting the legality of (most) abortion is pretty much just the same as the first that HockeyDude lists. Having said that, there's something here to which I feel the need to respond:

It's true, a scientific argument for pro-life is growing. Personally I'm mixed on the subject. I'm sure most people who get abortions are sluts that don't want to/can't handle children and want to keep sleeping around. That's not right.

The correct punctuation is:

'Most people who get abortions are sluts that don't want to/can't handle children and want to keep sleeping around.'
'That's not right.'

What's the grammatical difference?

In my version, one person is saying that most people who get abortions are sluts that don't want to/can't handle children and want to keep sleeping around, and another is informing them that that's an incorrect assessment.

[TJ in Oregon]

I think something of an indictment against the pro-life movement can be made in that it's overly religious when it often doesn't need to be to make the same point. I remember sitting in a meeting of a pro-life group (of primarily Catholics) once where we actually had an argument about whether or not we should work with pro-life people who have radically different beliefs in other areas. Thankfully, pragmatism did win, but I was astonished there was an argument at all. I don't think converting to Catholicism need be a requirement for contributing to the pro-life movement, and nor should anyone else if they desire to actually accomplish anything.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of atheists out there sympathetic to the pro-life cause and we need to make sure we aren't driving them away from contributing.

[Mordecai]

It's worth noting though that Hitchens was an advocate and defender of birth control, and was highly critical of the Catholic Church's position on it, particularly in third world countries. If people had better sex education and access to birth control, they would need less abortions.