Opinion of this Observation Made by a College Professor of Racial Geography

[Del Tachi]

Seems to be a freedom observation.

[AggregateDemand]

Freedom Observation

My compulsory education was completed in the Northeast. White people as far as the eye could see, and housing prices that kept middle class minorities away. Returned to my beloved home state as soon as age emancipated me. Discovered that Texas is far more integrated than the Northeast in virtually every aspect of life. Even churches are becoming more integrated.

[H. Ross Peron]

And Southern schools aren't?

[Del Tachi]

And Southern schools aren't?

Your suburban schools in the South can be just as segregated as the ones in the North, but many of your small town and rural schools are incredibly diverse in the South.  However, in the North small towns and rural areas tend to be lily-white as are schools in those areas.

In the North, urban schools are overwhelmingly attended by minorities.  The same is true of urban schools in the South.

In small towns and rural areas in the North, the schools are almost exclusively white while in the South these types of schools are much more diverse and, in many cases, majority-minority.     

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Yes rural schools in the North have much fewer black people than rural schools in the South but can that really be called segregation?

[7,052,770]

And Southern schools aren't?

Your suburban schools in the South can be just as segregated as the ones in the North, but many of your small town and rural schools are incredibly diverse in the South.  However, in the North small towns and rural areas tend to be lily-white as are schools in those areas.   

What?  In most rural Deep South towns, the public schools are all black and all of the whites go to private school.

Now, I do think your overarching observation that racial macrorelations are better in the North, but racial microrelations are better in the South, is probably a correct one.  I just think schools are a really poor example of it.

[bedstuy]

It's less than it seems though. 

Black people left the South to live in major cities in the North during the Great Migration.  This migration occurred during the industrial revolution where industry began to gain on agriculture.  So, the Northern black population is concentrated in those cities because settlement patterns where dictated by the economics of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries vs. the economics of plantation agriculture.  Agriculture is necessarily more spread out than factory work, so blacks in the South are more evenly distributed.  Not racism, just historical coincidence. 

The whole relationship between racism and segregation is pretty interesting though.  People tend to invoke segregation as akin to racism sometimes.  But other times, like in the gentrification context, integration is akin to racism.  It isn't the right wing that wants to maintain the racial balance of 90% black neighborhoods in New York City.

But, the schools point might have some validity.  My neighborhood is probably 10-12% white, but the public schools are about 0% white.  There is a cultural, economic gulf on schools that tends to divide races very sharply.

[Del Tachi]

And Southern schools aren't?

Your suburban schools in the South can be just as segregated as the ones in the North, but many of your small town and rural schools are incredibly diverse in the South.  However, in the North small towns and rural areas tend to be lily-white as are schools in those areas.   

What?  In most rural Deep South towns, the public schools are all black and all of the whites go to private school.

That's probably only true in extremely rural areas like the MS Delta or South Carolina Black Belt.

However, I would expect that many of your medium-to-large schools in Mississippi - places like Clinton, Starkville or Tupelo - are much more diverse than schools or corresponding size in places like New Jersey or Michigan. 

[Indy Texas]

I don't see how much more integrated Northern churches could be than Southern ones.

A larger proportion of Northern whites are members of the Roman Catholic Church, which has virtually no African-American members apart from in some parts of Maryland. You certainly aren't going to find too many non-white faces in a Lutheran or Episcopalian service.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

Horrible observation, because it's misleading.


It's implying that there is some sort of systematic segregation going on ala Jim Crow, rather than historical immigration and economic trends that left rural areas in the North as white and cities full of minorities, while in the South blacks are predominant in cities, white dominate suburbs, and there's some parity in rural areas.


Guys, it's 2014. Let's get past this Civil War "Your region is more racist than mine!" spiel

[DC Al Fine]

I don't see how much more integrated Northern churches could be than Southern ones.

A larger proportion of Northern whites are members of the Roman Catholic Church, which has virtually no African-American members apart from in some parts of Maryland. You certainly aren't going to find too many non-white faces in a Lutheran or Episcopalian service.

What about within denominations with decent sized black components? Would you get blacks in a Methodist or Baptist service in New England?

[Napoleon]

Yes rural schools in the North have much fewer black people than rural schools in the South but can that really be called segregation?

By definition, yes, but even a spatial index of segregation that excluded rural school districts would reach the conclusion that Northern districts are highly segregated by race.

Yeah and CT is the worst.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

So are southern schools.

[AggregateDemand]

Guys, it's 2014. Let's get past this Civil War "Your regions is more racist than mine!" spiel

Race baiting should be dead, but this isn't race baiting. He's pointing out that different types of race phenomena. The South deals with the old school racism of discrimination and residual hatred. The North deals with racial ommission, which creates a natural segregation and lack of empathy (in some instances).

[Mechaman]

Horrible observation, because it's misleading.


It's implying that there is some sort of systematic segregation going on ala Jim Crow, rather than historical immigration and economic trends that left rural areas in the North as white and cities full of minorities, while in the South blacks are predominant in cities, white dominate suburbs, and there's some parity in rural areas.


Guys, it's 2014. Let's get past this Civil War "Your regions is more racist than mine!" spiel

Wow, this is a really great post.  I think I'll even sig that last line on mine.  Bravo sir, bravo!

[Indy Texas]

I don't see how much more integrated Northern churches could be than Southern ones.

A larger proportion of Northern whites are members of the Roman Catholic Church, which has virtually no African-American members apart from in some parts of Maryland. You certainly aren't going to find too many non-white faces in a Lutheran or Episcopalian service.

What about within denominations with decent sized black components? Would you get blacks in a Methodist or Baptist service in New England?

Would you get blacks in New England, period?

If I had to guess which denomination would be most integrated, I'd go with the United Methodist Church, simply because it's a fairly big one that encompasses both blacks and whites and both theological conservatives and theological liberals.

The UMC church my family went to when I was growing up was in keeping with the Mainline nature of the parent organization. Not a lot of politics or fuss over abortion/gays/evolution/etc. There were a handful of black families and the pastor was a black man.

By comparison, there was a larger UMC church nearby that was more Evangelical in style. A lot of the people who went there were active in local Republican politics. They'd do a lot of fundraising for Darfur and for missions to Africa and South America, but I never saw them lift a finger to help any of the poor people who actually lived in our community. And they were 99.99% white.

So even if a denomination is relatively integrated, people will probably still self-select into like-minded individual congregations.

[DC Al Fine]

I don't see how much more integrated Northern churches could be than Southern ones.

A larger proportion of Northern whites are members of the Roman Catholic Church, which has virtually no African-American members apart from in some parts of Maryland. You certainly aren't going to find too many non-white faces in a Lutheran or Episcopalian service.

What about within denominations with decent sized black components? Would you get blacks in a Methodist or Baptist service in New England?

Would you get blacks in New England, period?

Good point

[Oldiesfreak1854]

I think he's talking about de facto segregation and not de jure segregation.  And that kind existed almost everywhere, even during the Jim Crow era in the South.

[All Along The Watchtower]

ITT: White people arguing over which region of the USA is more racist.

[Sol]

I think he's talking about de facto segregation and not de jure segregation.  And that kind existed almost everywhere, even during the Jim Crow era in the South.

Of course, de facto segregation was (and still is, to a certain extent) still oftentimes just as rigidly enforced as the legal stuff.

[traininthedistance]

It's less than it seems though.  

Black people left the South to live in major cities in the North during the Great Migration.  This migration occurred during the industrial revolution where industry began to gain on agriculture.  So, the Northern black population is concentrated in those cities because settlement patterns where dictated by the economics of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries vs. the economics of plantation agriculture.  Agriculture is necessarily more spread out than factory work, so blacks in the South are more evenly distributed.  Not racism, just historical coincidence.  

No, actually, it is racism as well, due to redlining, the phenomenon of "sundown towns", exclusionary zoning, and other related things.  I assume that it's true that you wouldn't have all that many blacks in the rural north... but there's too much segregation within cities and metro areas for it to just be "historical coincidence".

The whole relationship between racism and segregation is pretty interesting though.  People tend to invoke segregation as akin to racism sometimes.  But other times, like in the gentrification context, integration is akin to racism.  It isn't the right wing that wants to maintain the racial balance of 90% black neighborhoods in New York City.

But, the schools point might have some validity.  My neighborhood is probably 10-12% white, but the public schools are about 0% white.  There is a cultural, economic gulf on schools that tends to divide races very sharply.

The 10 percent white population in your neighborhood is probably disproportionately younger, childless, and new to the area. It would be an interesting test to see how those numbers change going forward.

...

Anyway, not to toot my own horn or anything, but my hometown in NJ and its schools were actually relatively well integrated- and I didn't realize that was so unusual for a fairly long time.  One less-than-great thing that I did notice, however, was that the honors classes tended to be a lot whiter than the student body as a whole.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Yes rural schools in the North have much fewer black people than rural schools in the South but can that really be called segregation?

By definition, yes, but even a spatial index of segregation that excluded rural school districts would reach the conclusion that Northern districts are highly segregated by race.

Ok, I just wouldn't call a geographic area segregated on the basis of a lack of a minority population in that area.  To measure segregation I would want to look at how minorities, however few in number, were distributed within that area.

[bedstuy]

It's less than it seems though.  

Black people left the South to live in major cities in the North during the Great Migration.  This migration occurred during the industrial revolution where industry began to gain on agriculture.  So, the Northern black population is concentrated in those cities because settlement patterns where dictated by the economics of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries vs. the economics of plantation agriculture.  Agriculture is necessarily more spread out than factory work, so blacks in the South are more evenly distributed.  Not racism, just historical coincidence.  

No, actually, it is racism as well, due to redlining, the phenomenon of "sundown towns", exclusionary zoning, and other related things.  I assume that it's true that you wouldn't have all that many blacks in the rural north... but there's too much segregation within cities and metro areas for it to just be "historical coincidence".

My point was that there is residential segregation in both regions, but the South seems more integrated at a macro level because of rural vs. urban patterns of settlement.

The whole relationship between racism and segregation is pretty interesting though.  People tend to invoke segregation as akin to racism sometimes.  But other times, like in the gentrification context, integration is akin to racism.  It isn't the right wing that wants to maintain the racial balance of 90% black neighborhoods in New York City.

But, the schools point might have some validity.  My neighborhood is probably 10-12% white, but the public schools are about 0% white.  There is a cultural, economic gulf on schools that tends to divide races very sharply.

The 10 percent white population in your neighborhood is probably disproportionately younger, childless, and new to the area. It would be an interesting test to see how those numbers change going forward.

...

Anyway, not to toot my own horn or anything, but my hometown in NJ and its schools were actually relatively well integrated- and I didn't realize that was so unusual for a fairly long time.  One less-than-great thing that I did notice, however, was that the honors classes tended to be a lot whiter than the student body as a whole.

Bed-Stuy actually has a decent number of white parents with kids because the real estate market makes it attractive to people who need a decent amount of space.  But, their kids aren't going to attend the local high school because it's a dropout factory.  I don't think anyone goes from my local high school to a real 4 year college.  That will take a long time to change. 

[free my dawg]

#SOUTHswagg

[Indy Texas]

I don't think anyone goes from my local high school to a real 4 year college.

They're all getting their CADD certificates.

Fourth Wall broken.