Question about "True Leftism"

[Mechaman]

Basically, what the hell is "True Leftism"?  Because to me it seems to be either 1) a term cooked up by forumites to identify people who outright identify with the coming revolution and actually defend Marxist governance as well as philosophy, 2) a term cooked up by mainstream left wingers to describe posters that are too zealous and unyielding in their beliefs to consider working within the system.  Eventually, right wingers and libertarians also adopt this term for their own usage in describing far left posters, 3) a term cooked up by blatant moderate heroes who identify any and all opposition to a hypothetical candidate as "true leftist sagery" instead of take into consideration the legitimate complaints about said candidate, some of which is based on more than just "candidate x does not agree with the left wing position on x issue", 4) Something something else.

Basically, I feel this is turning into an inverse version of the infamous term "Moderate Hero".  Thoughts?

[Mordecai]

2) a term cooked up by mainstream left wingers to describe posters that are too zealous and unyielding in their beliefs to consider working within the system.  Eventually, right wingers and libertarians also adopt this term for their own usage in describing far left posters

This is what I take it to be.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

As someone put it rightly (IceSpear, I believe), Cynthia McKinney and Dennis Kucinich fits a "true leftist" category well (as opposed to folks like Bernie Sanders, who are leftists, but certainly not an useless wackos).

Yet, while she's annoying as all her, comparing McKinney to Pol Pot or Kim Il-Sung is ridiculously Godwinesqe. Only an ignorant or a man thinking in extremely narrow terms (which pretty much describes our friend) can follow that "logic".

[IceSpear]

It varies. Some people think it just describes anyone who has far left beliefs.

For me, I think it encompasses a few things:

a) Having far left beliefs
b) Continually spreading these beliefs through "enlightened" Sage posts
c) Being completely ineffectual due to their demand for rigid ideological purity (see: Kucinich, Dennis)
d) This is the biggie: believing the scorched earth fallacy that if things get way worse, a socialist/communist utopia would be built from the ashes, despite this being proven wrong multiple times in history. Because of this ideology, they prefer no progress or making things worse to gradual progress, and will frequently cut off their nose to spite their face by helping right wingers win.

I think the final point is essential to be considered a True Leftist, as opposed to just a left winger.

[MATTROSE94]

It varies. Some people think it just describes anyone who has far left beliefs.

For me, I think it encompasses a few things:

a) Having far left beliefs
b) Continually spreading these beliefs through "enlightened" Sage posts
c) Being completely ineffectual due to their demand for rigid ideological purity (see: Kucinich, Dennis)
d) This is the biggie: believing the scorched earth fallacy that if things get way worse, a socialist/communist utopia would be built from the ashes, despite this being proven wrong multiple times in history. Because of this ideology, they prefer no progress or making things worse to gradual progress, and will frequently cut off their nose to spite their face by helping right wingers win.

I think the final point is essential to be considered a True Leftist, as opposed to just a left winger.

Pretty much this. True Leftists are basically the inverse of Tea-Party supporters and some of the rabidly far-right Republicans like Ted Cruz.

[© tweed]

Lenin wrote about it in 1919 or so.  anything BRTD comes up with in the meantime, having not read Left Wing Communism, an Infantile Disorder, is not worth consideration.

[IceSpear]

It varies. Some people think it just describes anyone who has far left beliefs.

For me, I think it encompasses a few things:

a) Having far left beliefs
b) Continually spreading these beliefs through "enlightened" Sage posts
c) Being completely ineffectual due to their demand for rigid ideological purity (see: Kucinich, Dennis)
d) This is the biggie: believing the scorched earth fallacy that if things get way worse, a socialist/communist utopia would be built from the ashes, despite this being proven wrong multiple times in history. Because of this ideology, they prefer no progress or making things worse to gradual progress, and will frequently cut off their nose to spite their face by helping right wingers win.

I think the final point is essential to be considered a True Leftist, as opposed to just a left winger.

Pretty much this. True Leftists are basically the inverse of Tea-Party supporters and some of the rabidly far-right Republicans like Ted Cruz.

Meh. At the end of the day, even the most rabid Tea Partier knows their interests are better served by holding their nose and voting Republican rather than taking their ball and going home. The same can't be said for the True Leftists.

[King]

I'm all in favor of ridiculing True Leftism and Teabaggery, but it's kind of weird combined with the Moderate Hero stuff.

Basically, the Atlas is saying you need to be either center-left or center-right and nowhere outside or in between.

[traininthedistance]

I'm all in favor of ridiculing True Leftism and Teabaggery, but it's kind of weird combined with the Moderate Hero stuff.

Basically, the Atlas is saying you need to be either center-left or center-right and nowhere outside or in between.

True Leftism and Moderate Heroism is a state of mind, not a set of policy positions.  There are plenty of radicals and moderates who don't deserve those labels.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

The correct answer is #2 - the confusion may arise from the fact that pretty much everyone who falls within #1 also falls within #2.

[Napoleon]

I'm all in favor of ridiculing True Leftism and Teabaggery, but it's kind of weird combined with the Moderate Hero stuff.

Basically, the Atlas is saying you need to be either center-left or center-right and nowhere outside or in between.

True Leftism and Moderate Heroism is a state of mind, not a set of policy positions.  There are plenty of radicals and moderates who don't deserve those labels.

Exactly- moderate heroism and true leftism are more similar to an act or a personality disorder than a political orientation.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Yes. Like see my current display name for example. There's tons of tumblr leftists (including the people it refers to) who are still giant Democratic Party hacks who would love to parade Ralph Nader's head on a pike.

For example, note these lyrics: http://songmeanings.com/songs/view/100045

Now consider this is the same band that wrote a concept album peppered with clips of people talking positively about the Black Panthers and the Weather Underground, and also did fundraising shows for liberal PACs ala MoveOn.org and you get the idea.

[King]

I would just like to remind BRTD that the term "freedom fighter" was coined by him based on his love of communist guerilla East Asians.

[Lief 🗽]

Here's the thing: it's okay to be a far left crazy person, but when push comes to shove you better damn well get in line and support The President, else you're as good as supporting the teabaggers.

[Mechaman]

Here's the thing: it's okay to be a far left crazy person, but when push comes to shove you better damn well get in line and support The President, else you're as good as supporting the teabaggers.

"DO WHAT WE TELL YOU!"

Yeah, that is a really great liberal mentality Lief.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Here's the thing: it's okay to be a far left crazy person, but when push comes to shove you better damn well get in line and support The President, else you're as good as supporting the teabaggers.

"You're with us or you're with the terrorists"?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Here's the thing: it's okay to be a far left crazy person, but when push comes to shove you better damn well get in line and support The President, else you're as good as supporting the teabaggers.

Uh, no dude, sorry, that's just wrong. You sound like the caricature of what True Leftists think we Smart Leftists* are.

*Can I give my contribution to expanding the Atlas vocabulary?

[Lief 🗽]

US politics is zero sum guys. Not everything the democrats do is great, but the alternative is always fascism.

[Maxwell]

Frank "Lief" Underwood

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

US politics is zero sum guys. Not everything the democrats do is great, but the alternative is always fascism.

Given the secret TPP negotiations, the pursuit of a corporate handout of a health care "reform" package, a half-assed stimulus which was mostly corporate tax cuts, mass surveillance of American civilians, covert and overt attempts at maintaining imperial hegemony, and lack of any coherent plan to implement any of their stated social goals (which are essentially vague platitudes about "helping the middle class" or some shit), I don't see any real value in supporting Obama over the Republicans.

And why does politics have to stay zero-sum? The damn point of my ideology is progressing past bourgeois government.

[Goldwater]

US politics is zero sum guys. Not everything the democrats do is great, but the alternative is always fascism.

US politics is zero sum guys. Not everything the republicans do is great, but the alternative is always communism.

[IceSpear]

US politics is zero sum guys. Not everything the democrats do is great, but the alternative is always fascism.

Given the secret TPP negotiations, the pursuit of a corporate handout of a health care "reform" package, a half-assed stimulus which was mostly corporate tax cuts, mass surveillance of American civilians, covert and overt attempts at maintaining imperial hegemony, and lack of any coherent plan to implement any of their stated social goals (which are essentially vague platitudes about "helping the middle class" or some shit), I don't see any real value in supporting Obama over the Republicans.

And why does politics have to stay zero-sum? The damn point of my ideology is progressing past bourgeois government.

Well, there's certainly more value in it than there is to writing in dead people.

Besides, if you think that stuff is bad, just wait until we get a Tea Party president.

US politics is zero sum guys. Not everything the democrats do is great, but the alternative is always fascism.

US politics is zero sum guys. Not everything the republicans do is great, but the alternative is always communism.

Except Democrats are not anywhere near as far to the left as Republicans are to the right.

[Yank2133]

I'm all in favor of ridiculing True Leftism and Teabaggery, but it's kind of weird combined with the Moderate Hero stuff.

Basically, the Atlas is saying you need to be either center-left or center-right and nowhere outside or in between.

True Leftism and Moderate Heroism is a state of mind, not a set of policy positions.  There are plenty of radicals and moderates who don't deserve those labels.

This.