Michigan gay marriage ban struck down

[© tweed]

Judges are not there to express the will of the people, legislatures are.

Then why have legislatures done such a terrible job of it?

it's all total nonsense.  my hunch is that baby Boomer liberals have this psychological need to see society progress to these previously unknown heights of tolerance, and by allowing a few thousand gay couples in each state marry they actually think they're making a Rosa Parks-esque imprint on society.  

not a few liberals compared Edie Windsor directly to Parks.  keep in mind Windsor's case only reached the SCOTUS because she had to pay a $363k tax as a result of her partner dying!  Rosa Parks wouldn't have known which real estate agents to hire if she had $363k in 1955 dollars.  my father, himself a baby boomer Jewish liberal, said something to me like "your generation will take it for granted, but gay marriage is revolutionizing society in a way you probably can't understand".  I just glared at him, as I usually do when discussing any topic this side of minor-conference college basketball.

the end result of this is that gays are joining the post-WW2 Jews as the most privileged group in world history: not disadvantaged at all by any demonstrable economic statistic, yet enjoying multiple "extra" protections under the law.

[pbrower2a]

The will of the people activists in black robes prevails again. The people via their reps banned it.

Same-sex marriage has a majority approval in Michigan.

Bad laws ask to be challenged.

...If you are not a homosexual, then how does same-sex marriage hurt you?

[IceSpear]

the end result of this is that gays are joining the post-WW2 Jews as the most privileged group in world history: not disadvantaged at all by any demonstrable economic statistic, yet enjoying multiple "extra" protections under the law.

Congrats on vomiting out one of the dumbest sentences I've ever seen on the Forum. I give you my accolades.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

the end result of this is that gays are joining the post-WW2 Jews as the most privileged group in world history: not disadvantaged at all by any demonstrable economic statistic, yet enjoying multiple "extra" protections under the law.

Congrats on vomiting out one of the dumbest sentences I've ever seen on the Forum. I give you my accolades.

To the extent that gays are a financially privileged group, I suspect it is largely due to those who are financially privileged being more able to endure coming out and thus skewing the statistics.

[bedstuy]

the end result of this is that gays are joining the post-WW2 Jews as the most privileged group in world history: not disadvantaged at all by any demonstrable economic statistic, yet enjoying multiple "extra" protections under the law.

Congrats on vomiting out one of the dumbest sentences I've ever seen on the Forum. I give you my accolades.

Gay post-WW2 Jew here.  I personally love all my extra protections.  I got bumped up to first class on my last flight and I've almost saved enough gay post-WW2 Jew platinum reward points to pay for a trip to Barcelona!

[Bojack Horseman]

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding.

Doesn't matter what the people think, if it's unconstitutional, it's unconstitutional.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Judges are not there to express the will of the people, legislatures are.

Then why have legislatures done such a terrible job of it?

it's all total nonsense.  my hunch is that baby Boomer liberals have this psychological need to see society progress to these previously unknown heights of tolerance, and by allowing a few thousand gay couples in each state marry they actually think they're making a Rosa Parks-esque imprint on society. 

not a few liberals compared Edie Windsor directly to Parks.  keep in mind Windsor's case only reached the SCOTUS because she had to pay a $363k tax as a result of her partner dying!  Rosa Parks wouldn't have known which real estate agents to hire if she had $363k in 1955 dollars.  my father, himself a baby boomer Jewish liberal, said something to me like "your generation will take it for granted, but gay marriage is revolutionizing society in a way you probably can't understand".  I just glared at him, as I usually do when discussing any topic this side of minor-conference college basketball.

the end result of this is that gays are joining the post-WW2 Jews as the most privileged group in world history: not disadvantaged at all by any demonstrable economic statistic, yet enjoying multiple "extra" protections under the law.

Jesus Christ, what the f**k am I reading.

First of all, how do you know whether or not gays are economically disadvantaged?  Secondly, how is giving gays the same rights everybody else has akin to giving them "extra protections?"  Thirdly, where the hell were you the last two months, FreeRepublic?  Stormfront?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

This.

Normally I don't really understand the "Dominos" comparison, but considering how much progress has been made, the hate is falling, and soon, may be gone, though that may be wishful thinking, a world without hate, is a great world indeed.

The belief that states have the right to define marriage does not per se mean that one is a hateful person.  That is a point worth keeping in mind.

The will of the people activists in black robes prevails again. The people via their reps banned it.

No, that's not true either.  Whether you agree with Judge Friedman's opinion or disagree, he reached a logical conclusion by applying his finding of the facts with the case law.  There can certainly be disagreements about his conclusion that the MMA fails the rational basis test (although the state did a thoroughly horrible job of attempting to prove that), but it is unfair and untrue to claim that this was the result of judicial activism.  Have you actually read the opinion?

The will of the people activists in black robes prevails again. The people via their reps banned it.

And the people, via their courts, repealed it.

I disagree with that as well.  "The people" really didn't do anything when we're talking about a federal judge who was appointed 25 years ago.  I would honestly be surprised if there was one person out there who voted for Reagan out of an expectancy that Friedman would be appointed.

The will of the people activists in black robes prevails again. The people via their reps banned it.

And the people, via their courts, repealed it.

The will of the people in 2014 matters more than the will of the people in 2004. And upholding the U.S. constitution trumps both.

Not quite.  Judges are not there to express the will of the people, legislatures are.  Some of our worst decisions have come about because of judges trying to impose their view of the current will of the people as inviolable precedent.  It's all good and well to apply Kennedy's reasoning in Windsor to these bans.  But they should be doing it regardless of the will of the people being in favor of or in opposition to that being done.  So while your latter two sentences are spot on, I find fault with your first.

I am not suggesting that courts should serve the will of the people. I am suggesting that the courts should serve the people. And that is precisely what they did in this scenario by protecting the constitutional rights of those challenging the law. People brought this issue to the courts.

I know you just wanted to make a point, but don't put words into my mouth.

"People" certainly brought this issue to the courts, but I fail to see how "the people" did anything here.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

the end result of this is that gays are joining the post-WW2 Jews as the most privileged group in world history: not disadvantaged at all by any demonstrable economic statistic, yet enjoying multiple "extra" protections under the law.

Congrats on vomiting out one of the dumbest sentences I've ever seen on the Forum. I give you my accolades.

Gay post-WW2 Jew here.  I personally love all my extra protections.  I got bumped up to first class on my last flight and I've almost saved enough gay post-WW2 Jew platinum reward points to pay for a trip to Barcelona!

Flight eighteen?

If so, you'd be in good company.

[Hifly]

The will of the people prevails again.

What about the will of the people in Kentucky? Did their will prevail when the overwhelmingly popular SSM recognition ban was struck down there?

[pbrower2a]

Judges are not there to express the will of the people, legislatures are.

Then why have legislatures done such a terrible job of it?

it's all total nonsense.  my hunch is that baby Boomer liberals have this psychological need to see society progress to these previously unknown heights of tolerance, and by allowing a few thousand gay couples in each state marry they actually think they're making a Rosa Parks-esque imprint on society.

Standing for same-sex-marriage (SSM) is not the same as a black woman refusing to give up her seat to a white male on a Montgomery bus in the 1950s. American gays in states that do not yet allow same-sex marriage are far better off than Southern blacks in the 1950s.  So what?

Nobody chooses to be gay or lesbian. The laws against gay rights are still silly. Maybe they are not as silly as Jim Crow laws, but they are silly nonetheless. Silly laws can have tragic consequences.   

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Rosa Parks would have never been able to buy a house that grand, at least in Alabama, because housing that good would have been barred to her.

SSM is revolutionizing nothing for me. I'm not a homosexual, and nothing is going to make me gay. I want gays and lesbians to get the respect as persons that they deserve so that it becomes increasingly unthinkable that anyone could abuse them.

I've been gay-bashed, at least to the extent of being threatened with a violent attack due to the perception of some fool that I am gay. I did the rational thing and ran. Of course, what's the point of being beaten? What am I to do -- try to convince some angry bigot that I am straight?

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European Jews were not so privileged between Nazi occupation and Allied liberation. Many of the surviving Jews would like to have had more time with close relatives and friends who perished in shooting pits, gas vans, and gas chambers.     

[Bandit3 the Worker]

The will of the people prevails again.

What about the will of the people in Kentucky? Did their will prevail when the overwhelmingly popular SSM recognition ban was struck down there?

Recent polls show support for marriage equality in Kentucky skyrocketing.

Plus, I voted no on the referendum to ban same-sex marriage in 2004.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

The will of the people prevails again.

What about the will of the people in Kentucky? Did their will prevail when the overwhelmingly popular SSM recognition ban was struck down there?

Recent polls show support for marriage equality in Kentucky skyrocketing.

Plus, I voted no on the referendum to ban same-sex marriage in 2004.

Because polls show a clear sample of Kentucky.....

I oppose SSM bans, but it seems to me that the "will of the people" means "will of those who agree with me" in your mind.

[Foucaulf]

The piling on Tweed in this thread is a bit ridiculous. I can perfectly imagine people trying to paint gay marriage as something it isn't - where it is a form of union designed for mainstream acceptance in the 90s. But what needs to be remembered is that such statements are not representative of the LGBT population, but only of those privileged enough to say such things.

At some point we will have to move to supporting protection for LGBT people beyond mere institutional acceptance. It will create cleavages within the community. That is something we must accept.

[Bojack Horseman]

So now that I can get married, the next step is finding someone to marry...and that is proving to be quite a difficult task.

[Simfan34]

So now that I can get married, the next step is finding someone to marry...and that is proving to be quite a difficult task.

Haha, poor fellow!

As for Tweed, he has a point in that people have a strange obsession over this issue as if it were the most important issue facing the nation today. It can become a bit tiring.

As a black person, I must say, I consider the endless comparison with the civil rights movement to be a bit grating at times. When gay people move into a neighborhood, property values went up. When black people moved into a neighborhood, property values went down.

No, gay people weren't enslaved. No, gay people weren't hanged from trees. No, being gay isn't some sort of arbitrary social construct on which for decades determined what you could and could not do, where you could not go, and so forth. There is a point in Tweed's argument- your average openly gay person would be far more "socially acceptable" in the latte liberal circles that champion this than your average inner city black person.

Obviously gay people have faced a lot of bigotry in this country and for our shame. But saying it is the defining issue of our time is an insult to the millions upon millions who have been unfortunate enough to not be the cause celebres of contemporary liberalism.

[Joe Republic]

No, gay people weren't hanged from trees. No, being gay isn't some sort of arbitrary social construct on which for decades determined what you could and could not do, where you could not go, and so forth.

What the hell are you talking about?

[pbrower2a]

So now that I can get married, the next step is finding someone to marry...and that is proving to be quite a difficult task.

Haha, poor fellow!

As for Tweed, he has a point in that people have a strange obsession over this issue as if it were the most important issue facing the nation today. It can become a bit tiring.

As a black person, I must say, I consider the endless comparison with the civil rights movement to be a bit grating at times. When gay people move into a neighborhood, property values went up. When black people moved into a neighborhood, property values went down.

That was a myth. Black people paid higher rents than white people for the same amount of floor space because of segregation. Houses that had once housed one white family were subdivided into apartments. Landlords literally rushed the depreciation of housing to get maximum income.

Shoehorning more people into a house made the house deteriorate rapidly -- which explains how some once-impressive mansions became slums. That has nothing to do with race.

...Housing prices did not plummet unless white people panicked. There were hucksters who did block-busting who might do the white home-owner an alleged great favor by buying a house worth $40K recently for $15K before the value really went down. The hustle was that the house would be quickly sold to a slumlord for $30K, only accelerating the decline of the neighborhood. 

A basic rule for anyone: nobody is in business of any kind to lose money. Anyone who pretends to do charity in real estate is likely a swindler. 

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Gays are still beaten for being gay. Race-based beatings are much rarer now. So far as I am concerned I see little difference between Michael Shepard (a gay young man beaten to death for being gay in Wyoming) and Michael Donald (a young black man beaten to death by a Klan group in Alabama).  In Nazi camps, Nazi guards have been known to set dogs upon prisoners for being gay.   

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I don't have to be gay to be beaten and badly injured for being gay. I have run from the threat.  You are unlikely to be beaten by white racists for being black. But you could be beaten and badly injured by some fool who thinks that you are gay. Gay-bashers, like most criminals, are simply stupid and angry.

The problem isn't that the bigot thinks that I am gay; the problem is that anyone believes that homosexuality is a pretext for a ferocious beating. Homophobia and racism are  opposite sides of the same counterfeit coin of violent bigotry.

[Simfan34]

No, gay people weren't hanged from trees. No, being gay isn't some sort of arbitrary social construct on which for decades determined what you could and could not do, where you could not go, and so forth.

What the hell are you talking about?

Being gay is a fundamental biological trait.

Race is a meaningless social construct.

[Sol]

This thread is very unfortunate.

[Joe Republic]

No, gay people weren't hanged from trees. No, being gay isn't some sort of arbitrary social construct on which for decades determined what you could and could not do, where you could not go, and so forth.

What the hell are you talking about?

Being gay is a fundamental biological trait.

Race is a meaningless social construct.

Do not add extra sentences that I did not type to my posts again. (I took it as an inadvertent mistake, which I've used my mod powers to fix. - TF)

And my question was directed more to your absurd statement that gay people have never been lynched or segregated.

[IceSpear]

Do we really have to get into a contest about which group was discriminated against more? Because the treatment of blacks in America looks like paradise compared to some of the other widely discriminated against groups throughout world history.

[Joshgreen]

Do we really have to get into a contest about which group was discriminated against more? Because the treatment of blacks in America looks like paradise compared to some of the other widely discriminated against groups throughout world history.

Wouldn't have gone there, bro...

[IceSpear]

Do we really have to get into a contest about which group was discriminated against more? Because the treatment of blacks in America looks like paradise compared to some of the other widely discriminated against groups throughout world history.

Wouldn't have gone there, bro...

Just making a point. Trying to minimize the suffering and institutionalized discrimination of one minority group just because another had it worse is one of the dumbest things you can possibly do. Hell, you don't even need to look beyond our borders for a group that had it much worse. The Native Americans were essentially victims of a mass genocide.

[Simfan34]

No, gay people weren't hanged from trees. No, being gay isn't some sort of arbitrary social construct on which for decades determined what you could and could not do, where you could not go, and so forth.

What the hell are you talking about?

Being gay is a fundamental biological trait.

Race is a meaningless social construct.

Do not add extra sentences that I did not type to my posts again. (I took it as an inadvertent mistake, which I've used my mod powers to fix. - TF)

And my question was directed more to your absurd statement that gay people have never been lynched or segregated.

What did I add?

And it's ludicrous to act as if the two ever happened in comparable frequency. Of course it happened but it's a frankly insulting comparison to make, and indeed a dehumanising one, that the perhaps of hundreds of thousands of black people what died unnatural deaths in this country's history... are somehow worth less individually as to be equal to the sum of suffering of an assorted few gay people. It implies a certain... hierarchy of value.

I realise I sound a bit shrill and hyperbolic. But it's a comparison, often made superficially and without thought, that bothers me greatly.