Are psychiatric drugs linked to mass murders?

[David S]

It seems that a number of mass murders, including the recent one in Minnesota, involved killers who were taking  psychiatric drugs. A quick Google search came up with the list below. Do you think these drugs may be causing people to commit murder?

Friend Says Minn. Teen (Jeff Weise) Gunman on Prozac
http://portal.wowway.com/news/read.php?id=13059307&ps=1011

Eric Harris, the leader in the Littleton tragedy, was taking the psychiatric drug Luvox at the time of the murders http://www.oralchelation.net/data/Lilly/lilly15.htm


•  Sam Manzie, 15, attacked, raped and strangled to death an 11-year-old boy selling items door to door for the PTA. He was on Paxil.
•  Kip Kinkel, 14, killed his parents and went on a shooting rampage at his Springfield, Ore., high school. He was taking Ritalin and Prozac.
•  Jeremy Strohmeyer raped and murdered a 7-year-old girl one week after he started taking Dexedrine.
•  Columbine High School's Eric Harris was taking Luvox.
•  T.J. Solomon, 15, who attended Heritage High School in Conyers, Ga., was taking Ritalin when he opened fire on his classmates, wounding six.
•  One of the most interesting is a case we can't yet prove. In 1998, 13-year-old Mitchell Johnson and 11-year-old Andrew Golden opened fire on their classmates in Westside Middle School in Jonesboro, Ark. Young Johnson had been seeing a psychiatrist but, when questioned as to the nature of his medication, if any, his attorney, Val Price, would say only, "That is confidential information, and I don't want to comment on that."
•  The crime America may never recover from, the studied and deliberate drowning of all five of her children by a mother in Texas, was performed under the influence of "anti-depressants."
•  So was the incredible stabbing murder of eight Japanese children in the first and second grades by a man on anti-depressants.
•  As was O.J. Simpson when the double murder many believe he committed occurred. Please understand I'm not reaching out for every verifiable case I can muster so I can stuff this sausage to make it seem convincingly fat. Quite the opposite. I have not found ONE single case of irrational, motivationless killing that did not include some kind of mind-tampering drug.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/7/2/181622.shtml

Paxil Maker Held Liable in Murder/Suicide.
Will $6.4 Million Verdict Open a New Mass Tort?
For the first time, a jury found a pharmaceutical firm liable for deaths caused by a patient taking an antidepressant. A federal jury in Cheyenne, Wyo., ordered SmithKline Beecham (now GlaxoSmithKline) to pay $6.4 million to relatives of Donald Schell. Schell, 60, had been taking Paxil for just 48 hours when he shot and killed his wife, his daughter, his granddaughter and himself.
http://www.baumhedlundlaw.com/media/ssri/Paxil_murder.htm


On May 20, 1988, Laurie Dann walked into a Winnetka, Illinois second grade classroom carrying three pistols and began shooting innocent little children, killing one and wounding five others before killing herself. Subsequent blood tests revealed that at the time of the killings, Dann was on a psychiatric drug of a class clearly shown to cause unexplained hostile and violent behavior.
On September 26, 1988, 19-year-old James Wilson took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school in Greenwood, South Carolina and started shooting schoolchildren, killing two 8-year-old girls and wounding seven other children and two teachers. Wilson had been in and out of the hands of psychiatrists for years and within 8 months of the killings he had been on several psychiatric drugs which can generate violent behavior. Since the age of 14, he had been given psychiatric drugs, including Xanax, Valium, Thorazine and Haldol.
On January 17, 1989, Patrick Purdy opened fire on a school yard full of young children in Stockton, California. During his vicious and unprovoked assault, Purdy killed five school children and wounded 30 others. Purdy then killed himself. During the two years prior to the murders of the Stockton children, Purdy had been on two strong psychiatric drugs of categories known to cause violence.
http://www.wildestcolts.com/mentalhealth/senseless.html

[John Dibble]

I am of the opinion that we are too dependent on medication for treating psychological problems in this country - many cases could use non-drug related treatments, but those take time and people want a quick fix. Doctors need to only prescribe these drugs to people who really need it, whom other treatments will not work on. Messing around with a person's brain chemistry can be very unpredictable.

Also, this doesn't give one much faith in the FDA, which approves these drugs, now does it?

[A18]

I'm on two of them, and I don't have any violent tendencies.

[dazzleman]

It's hard to say.

In the "good old days" before psychiatric medications, many people who could have been functional had the medication been available were locked away for life in mental institutions.

I know of cases in which the use of different drugs appears to have been highly successful.

I was also told the other day of a case in which a guy I know was taking anti-anxiety medication on too high a dose, and he almost killed himself twice due to the loss of too much fear and inhibition from the drug.  He cut his dose in half, and eventually came off the drug completely.

Clearly, these drugs can have some bad side effects, but I am probably a little more of a fan of them now than I was 10 years ago.  Some people really need them, but there is sometimes a tendency to prescribe pills when other cures are available.  The wisdom is in knowing the difference.

[Blue Rectangle]

Linked? Yes.  Causally linked? No.

The medication of kids these days is a case of having a hammer as the only solution and seeing all problems as nails.  Basically, if a kids is overactive then they are pronounced ADD/ADHD and given Ritalin.  If they are depressed they are given Prozac.  It seems to me that the incidents listed are probably cases of kids with very serious psychological problems that got misdiagnosed and mismedicated in lieu of the real help they needed.

[David S]

Blue Rectangle's point is valid. It could just be that the kid is really mentally ill which causes the violence and is also the reason the kid is getting the drugs.  But when I was a kid ,half a century ago, not many kids were seeing shrinks or getting psychiatric drugs, and school shootings were almost unheard of.

[J. J.]

Or, conversely, the people have severe psycological problems that the drugs don't effect.

[Bandit3 the Worker]

Do you think these drugs may be causing people to commit murder?

The answer is clear: Yes.

[Cashcow]

I know multiple people who are on dozens of psychiatric drugs and function without any erratic behavior for the most part.

[Blue Rectangle]

Do you think these drugs may be causing people to commit murder?

The answer is clear: Yes.

I think he meant, "are these drugs causing people to commit murder?"

[David S]

These are some of the warnings published at Prozac’s website. It doesn’t specifically mention homicide but it does mention suicide. It also mentions hostility and aggressiveness as things to watch for.
http://www.prozac.com/common_pages/safety_information.jsp?reqNavId=undefined
In clinical studies, antidepressants increased the risk of suicidal thinking and behavior in children and adolescents with depression and other psychiatric disorders. Anyone considering the use of PROZAC or any other antidepressant in a child or adolescent must balance this risk with the clinical need. Patients who are starting therapy should be observed closely. Families and caregivers should discuss with the doctor any observations of worsening depression symptoms, suicidal thinking and behavior, or unusal changes in behavior. PROZAC is approved for use in pediatric patients (children and adolescents) with MDD or obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD).
What should I talk to my doctor or pharmacist about?
•   Patients on antidepressants and their families or caregivers should watch for worsening depression symptoms, unusual changes in behavior and thoughts of suicide, as well as for anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, difficulty sleeping, irritability, hostility, aggressiveness, impulsivity, restlessness, or extreme hyperactivity. Call the doctor if you have thoughts of suicide or if any of these symptoms are severe or occur suddenly. Be especially observant at the beginning of treatment or whenever there is a change in dose. You should not stop taking PROZAC abruptly. Talk to your doctor before you stop taking PROZAC.

[??????????]

Maybe these problems were originally created by immunizations? I have heard that argued just as strongly as the use of these terrible drugs such as Prozac and Ritalin.

[David S]

A good question is; why are so many kids having problems which cause them to need a shrink? Certainly I'm no expert on the subject, but my observation is that some kids just aren't having fun in life. For whatever reason some kids just don't fit in with others, maybe they aren't good at sports, or don't have social skills, or aren't attractive. They don't have many friends and they become lonesome and bored. If that continues long enough it leads to depression and maybe anger too. In my opinion that's where many of these shootings start. I really don't know how to fix that though.

[John Dibble]

A good question is; why are so many kids having problems which cause them to need a shrink? Certainly I'm no expert on the subject, but my observation is that some kids just aren't having fun in life. For whatever reason some kids just don't fit in with others, maybe they aren't good at sports, or don't have social skills, or aren't attractive. They don't have many friends and they become lonesome and bored. If that continues long enough it leads to depression and maybe anger too. In my opinion that's where many of these shootings start. I really don't know how to fix that though.

But hasn't it always been like that?

[David S]

A good question is; why are so many kids having problems which cause them to need a shrink? Certainly I'm no expert on the subject, but my observation is that some kids just aren't having fun in life. For whatever reason some kids just don't fit in with others, maybe they aren't good at sports, or don't have social skills, or aren't attractive. They don't have many friends and they become lonesome and bored. If that continues long enough it leads to depression and maybe anger too. In my opinion that's where many of these shootings start. I really don't know how to fix that though.

But hasn't it always been like that?

Maybe its just my perception John but it seems like its worse today. I Think kids were more inclined to go out and play in the days before PCs, video games.

[John Dibble]

A good question is; why are so many kids having problems which cause them to need a shrink? Certainly I'm no expert on the subject, but my observation is that some kids just aren't having fun in life. For whatever reason some kids just don't fit in with others, maybe they aren't good at sports, or don't have social skills, or aren't attractive. They don't have many friends and they become lonesome and bored. If that continues long enough it leads to depression and maybe anger too. In my opinion that's where many of these shootings start. I really don't know how to fix that though.

But hasn't it always been like that?

Maybe its just my perception John but it seems like its worse today. I Think kids were more inclined to go out and play in the days before PCs, video games.

Well, I'm an avid gamer - games are fun, and multiplayer is a great way to socialize. I was more asking about people not being accepted. I think one essential problem is that we just overmedicate - we diagnose a problem when it isn't really one worth medicating. It's a negative aspect of capitalism, doctors are willing to prescribe medicine because it's usually the cheapest and quickest way to 'cure' the problem.

[David S]

A good question is; why are so many kids having problems which cause them to need a shrink? Certainly I'm no expert on the subject, but my observation is that some kids just aren't having fun in life. For whatever reason some kids just don't fit in with others, maybe they aren't good at sports, or don't have social skills, or aren't attractive. They don't have many friends and they become lonesome and bored. If that continues long enough it leads to depression and maybe anger too. In my opinion that's where many of these shootings start. I really don't know how to fix that though.

But hasn't it always been like that?

Maybe its just my perception John but it seems like its worse today. I Think kids were more inclined to go out and play in the days before PCs, video games.

Well, I'm an avid gamer - games are fun, and multiplayer is a great way to socialize. I was more asking about people not being accepted. I think one essential problem is that we just overmedicate - we diagnose a problem when it isn't really one worth medicating. It's a negative aspect of capitalism, doctors are willing to prescribe medicine because it's usually the cheapest and quickest way to 'cure' the problem.

I can't argue with aything you said, but I have to raise the question; why are so many kids being sent to the shrink in the first place. From my childhood, I cannot remember ever hearing of a single child who was seeing one. The usual treatment for a difficult child was a trip to the principal's office and possibly a close encounter with a large wooden paddle.

[John Dibble]

A good question is; why are so many kids having problems which cause them to need a shrink? Certainly I'm no expert on the subject, but my observation is that some kids just aren't having fun in life. For whatever reason some kids just don't fit in with others, maybe they aren't good at sports, or don't have social skills, or aren't attractive. They don't have many friends and they become lonesome and bored. If that continues long enough it leads to depression and maybe anger too. In my opinion that's where many of these shootings start. I really don't know how to fix that though.

But hasn't it always been like that?

Maybe its just my perception John but it seems like its worse today. I Think kids were more inclined to go out and play in the days before PCs, video games.

Well, I'm an avid gamer - games are fun, and multiplayer is a great way to socialize. I was more asking about people not being accepted. I think one essential problem is that we just overmedicate - we diagnose a problem when it isn't really one worth medicating. It's a negative aspect of capitalism, doctors are willing to prescribe medicine because it's usually the cheapest and quickest way to 'cure' the problem.

I can't argue with aything you said, but I have to raise the question; why are so many kids being sent to the shrink in the first place. From my childhood, I cannot remember ever hearing of a single child who was seeing one. The usual treatment for a difficult child was a trip to the principal's office and possibly a close encounter with a large wooden paddle.

Well, there you go - generational difference. Many parents nowadays wouldn't even think of paddling their kids. They need to wake up and realize that the problem isn't a shrink is needed to fix - a kid is hard work, and many would prefer to blame problems on something beyond their control rather than something in their contro.

[Citizen James]

A good question is; why are so many kids having problems which cause them to need a shrink? Certainly I'm no expert on the subject, but my observation is that some kids just aren't having fun in life. For whatever reason some kids just don't fit in with others, maybe they aren't good at sports, or don't have social skills, or aren't attractive. They don't have many friends and they become lonesome and bored. If that continues long enough it leads to depression and maybe anger too. In my opinion that's where many of these shootings start. I really don't know how to fix that though.

But hasn't it always been like that?

Maybe its just my perception John but it seems like its worse today. I Think kids were more inclined to go out and play in the days before PCs, video games.

Well, I'm an avid gamer - games are fun, and multiplayer is a great way to socialize. I was more asking about people not being accepted. I think one essential problem is that we just overmedicate - we diagnose a problem when it isn't really one worth medicating. It's a negative aspect of capitalism, doctors are willing to prescribe medicine because it's usually the cheapest and quickest way to 'cure' the problem.

I can't argue with aything you said, but I have to raise the question; why are so many kids being sent to the shrink in the first place. From my childhood, I cannot remember ever hearing of a single child who was seeing one. The usual treatment for a difficult child was a trip to the principal's office and possibly a close encounter with a large wooden paddle.

Well, there you go - generational difference. Many parents nowadays wouldn't even think of paddling their kids. They need to wake up and realize that the problem isn't a shrink is needed to fix - a kid is hard work, and many would prefer to blame problems on something beyond their control rather than something in their contro.

Ah yes, nothing like teaching kids that the best way to solve problems is to hit people, and that might makes right.

I do agree that parents often need to be far more involved in their children's lives, but how do we encourage that?  Amongst the poor they're often working two jobs just to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table.  Among the well to do, their jobs often have priority and the kids are more of a trophy than anything.

I think the other problem with meds is that too many doctors aren't following through and keeping a close eye on how their patients react to the medication.  Used properly, these meds can be very helpful - allowing people to lead normal lives.   

I have a hypothisis on what might be happening, though based only on my own personal experience (so take it with a grain of salt and as unscientific, but still a potential insight).    I have panic disorder, which basicly means my body jumps into fight or flight mode at random times.  Even when I know exactly what it is, it is still quite painful (very fast heartrate, all muscles tense up, the digestive system shuts down causing nasuea,  temporary vertigo due to the jump in blood pressure throwing the inner ear off ballance, etc...).   Medication basicly puts a stop to this, or at least makes it far less common (once every few months, rather than half a dozen times a day).  My observation is that it also seems to make it easier to stop and change various thought patterns running through my head (ever had a song stuck in your head?  Add unpleasant thoughts and multiply tenfold or so...)

The two tricks are - 1) these meds aren't an instant cure, they take a month or two to readjust the brain chemistry to a proper ballance during which time things can feel worse.  and 2) I suspect some of these people are using these obsessive thought patterns to keep themseves from acting more rashly, either violently or self-destructively.  I suspect this may be especially tough on teens, who lack the life experience to understand that you can ride out the rough times and things do get better.

I was fortunate.   I was able to ride out the adjustment phase with little problem, and my doctor kept close tabs on my case while I adjusted.   He kept tabs on how I was doing, and gave me tools for dealing with any anger that came up.  All too often in our HMO dominated culture it's just prescribe and forget - just write a script and assume it will work.  Perscriptions are only part of a good treatment plan.  For a stronger chance of sucessful treatmen doctors need to make sure they cover all the bases and do appropriate follow ups, and at this point from what I understand the quality treatment I got is something of a rarity these days.

[John Dibble]

Ah yes, nothing like teaching kids that the best way to solve problems is to hit people, and that might makes right.

Err, no. Nobody ever said that. All I'm saying is that many parents would rather take an easy way out and medicate rather than use any form of discipline.