Calvinism Is Back

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

The extent to which Calvinism is 'back' is also the extent to which it was never really gone. I don't think the size or influence of mainline Calvinist denominations has really fluctuated all that much in recent years (DC Al Fine or Mung Beans or somebody can correct me on this if I'm wrong about that), and as Tweed mentioned generalized conservative evangelicalism is prone to a sort of cyclical theological faddishness.

There's a cycle between Calvinism and Arminianism within the Baptist movement. Calvinism is definitely on the upswing right now. You're right though. There isn't any massive growth in the Reformed faith. We're growing yes, but it's slow.

The way I understand it, God, in Calvinism, simply plays Duck, Duck, Goose with people ("You go to Heaven, you go to Heaven, you go to Hell, you go to Heaven..."), and we can do literally nothing to influence His decision in one way or the other. I'm not trying to be a dick, but what exactly draws people to Calvinism? Is it the idea that you can commit as many sins as you want, because you just may be one of the Elect, and, if you're not, you had a good run anyway? I'm very curious.

I'm sure that is a part of it to some degree, but Calvinism has many other ideas (democracy within the church, etc) that is not within Lutheranism (the Lutheran Church has a bishop system).

Another is that I expect that the people drawn to Calvinism are likely to believe that they are part of the elect and aren't particularly looking for a "get out of Hell free" card to commit as many sins as they want .  One of the attractive features of Calvinism compared to Arminianism is that you don't have to worry about falling out of grace.  God won't let you do that.

I'm a bit surprised by socialisthoosier's criticism. Usually we're attacked for being Puritan prudes . Ernest is correct though, election and perseverance of the saints are the most comforting parts of our theology.

How do we know who the elect are?

[DC Al Fine]

The extent to which Calvinism is 'back' is also the extent to which it was never really gone. I don't think the size or influence of mainline Calvinist denominations has really fluctuated all that much in recent years (DC Al Fine or Mung Beans or somebody can correct me on this if I'm wrong about that), and as Tweed mentioned generalized conservative evangelicalism is prone to a sort of cyclical theological faddishness.

There's a cycle between Calvinism and Arminianism within the Baptist movement. Calvinism is definitely on the upswing right now. You're right though. There isn't any massive growth in the Reformed faith. We're growing yes, but it's slow.

The way I understand it, God, in Calvinism, simply plays Duck, Duck, Goose with people ("You go to Heaven, you go to Heaven, you go to Hell, you go to Heaven..."), and we can do literally nothing to influence His decision in one way or the other. I'm not trying to be a dick, but what exactly draws people to Calvinism? Is it the idea that you can commit as many sins as you want, because you just may be one of the Elect, and, if you're not, you had a good run anyway? I'm very curious.

I'm sure that is a part of it to some degree, but Calvinism has many other ideas (democracy within the church, etc) that is not within Lutheranism (the Lutheran Church has a bishop system).

Another is that I expect that the people drawn to Calvinism are likely to believe that they are part of the elect and aren't particularly looking for a "get out of Hell free" card to commit as many sins as they want .  One of the attractive features of Calvinism compared to Arminianism is that you don't have to worry about falling out of grace.  God won't let you do that.

I'm a bit surprised by socialisthoosier's criticism. Usually we're attacked for being Puritan prudes . Ernest is correct though, election and perseverance of the saints are the most comforting parts of our theology.

How do we know who the elect are?

We don't know. Well, you can know your own salvation, but it's not like I can tell who is saved or who is damned.

[Zioneer]

The extent to which Calvinism is 'back' is also the extent to which it was never really gone. I don't think the size or influence of mainline Calvinist denominations has really fluctuated all that much in recent years (DC Al Fine or Mung Beans or somebody can correct me on this if I'm wrong about that), and as Tweed mentioned generalized conservative evangelicalism is prone to a sort of cyclical theological faddishness.

There's a cycle between Calvinism and Arminianism within the Baptist movement. Calvinism is definitely on the upswing right now. You're right though. There isn't any massive growth in the Reformed faith. We're growing yes, but it's slow.

The way I understand it, God, in Calvinism, simply plays Duck, Duck, Goose with people ("You go to Heaven, you go to Heaven, you go to Hell, you go to Heaven..."), and we can do literally nothing to influence His decision in one way or the other. I'm not trying to be a dick, but what exactly draws people to Calvinism? Is it the idea that you can commit as many sins as you want, because you just may be one of the Elect, and, if you're not, you had a good run anyway? I'm very curious.

I'm sure that is a part of it to some degree, but Calvinism has many other ideas (democracy within the church, etc) that is not within Lutheranism (the Lutheran Church has a bishop system).

Another is that I expect that the people drawn to Calvinism are likely to believe that they are part of the elect and aren't particularly looking for a "get out of Hell free" card to commit as many sins as they want .  One of the attractive features of Calvinism compared to Arminianism is that you don't have to worry about falling out of grace.  God won't let you do that.

I'm a bit surprised by socialisthoosier's criticism. Usually we're attacked for being Puritan prudes . Ernest is correct though, election and perseverance of the saints are the most comforting parts of our theology.

How do we know who the elect are?

We don't know. Well, you can know your own salvation, but it's not like I can tell who is saved or who is damned.

That seems like a bizarre way to live life.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

The extent to which Calvinism is 'back' is also the extent to which it was never really gone. I don't think the size or influence of mainline Calvinist denominations has really fluctuated all that much in recent years (DC Al Fine or Mung Beans or somebody can correct me on this if I'm wrong about that), and as Tweed mentioned generalized conservative evangelicalism is prone to a sort of cyclical theological faddishness.

There's a cycle between Calvinism and Arminianism within the Baptist movement. Calvinism is definitely on the upswing right now. You're right though. There isn't any massive growth in the Reformed faith. We're growing yes, but it's slow.

The way I understand it, God, in Calvinism, simply plays Duck, Duck, Goose with people ("You go to Heaven, you go to Heaven, you go to Hell, you go to Heaven..."), and we can do literally nothing to influence His decision in one way or the other. I'm not trying to be a dick, but what exactly draws people to Calvinism? Is it the idea that you can commit as many sins as you want, because you just may be one of the Elect, and, if you're not, you had a good run anyway? I'm very curious.

I'm sure that is a part of it to some degree, but Calvinism has many other ideas (democracy within the church, etc) that is not within Lutheranism (the Lutheran Church has a bishop system).

Another is that I expect that the people drawn to Calvinism are likely to believe that they are part of the elect and aren't particularly looking for a "get out of Hell free" card to commit as many sins as they want .  One of the attractive features of Calvinism compared to Arminianism is that you don't have to worry about falling out of grace.  God won't let you do that.

I'm a bit surprised by socialisthoosier's criticism. Usually we're attacked for being Puritan prudes . Ernest is correct though, election and perseverance of the saints are the most comforting parts of our theology.

How do we know who the elect are?

We don't know. Well, you can know your own salvation, but it's not like I can tell who is saved or who is damned.

How can you know your own salvation?

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

The extent to which Calvinism is 'back' is also the extent to which it was never really gone. I don't think the size or influence of mainline Calvinist denominations has really fluctuated all that much in recent years (DC Al Fine or Mung Beans or somebody can correct me on this if I'm wrong about that), and as Tweed mentioned generalized conservative evangelicalism is prone to a sort of cyclical theological faddishness.

There's a cycle between Calvinism and Arminianism within the Baptist movement. Calvinism is definitely on the upswing right now. You're right though. There isn't any massive growth in the Reformed faith. We're growing yes, but it's slow.

The way I understand it, God, in Calvinism, simply plays Duck, Duck, Goose with people ("You go to Heaven, you go to Heaven, you go to Hell, you go to Heaven..."), and we can do literally nothing to influence His decision in one way or the other. I'm not trying to be a dick, but what exactly draws people to Calvinism? Is it the idea that you can commit as many sins as you want, because you just may be one of the Elect, and, if you're not, you had a good run anyway? I'm very curious.

I'm sure that is a part of it to some degree, but Calvinism has many other ideas (democracy within the church, etc) that is not within Lutheranism (the Lutheran Church has a bishop system).

Another is that I expect that the people drawn to Calvinism are likely to believe that they are part of the elect and aren't particularly looking for a "get out of Hell free" card to commit as many sins as they want .  One of the attractive features of Calvinism compared to Arminianism is that you don't have to worry about falling out of grace.  God won't let you do that.

I'm a bit surprised by socialisthoosier's criticism. Usually we're attacked for being Puritan prudes . Ernest is correct though, election and perseverance of the saints are the most comforting parts of our theology.

How do we know who the elect are?

We don't know. Well, you can know your own salvation, but it's not like I can tell who is saved or who is damned.

If you know you're going to heaven, why not kill yourself and get it over with?

[Deus Naturae]

The extent to which Calvinism is 'back' is also the extent to which it was never really gone. I don't think the size or influence of mainline Calvinist denominations has really fluctuated all that much in recent years (DC Al Fine or Mung Beans or somebody can correct me on this if I'm wrong about that), and as Tweed mentioned generalized conservative evangelicalism is prone to a sort of cyclical theological faddishness.

There's a cycle between Calvinism and Arminianism within the Baptist movement. Calvinism is definitely on the upswing right now. You're right though. There isn't any massive growth in the Reformed faith. We're growing yes, but it's slow.

The way I understand it, God, in Calvinism, simply plays Duck, Duck, Goose with people ("You go to Heaven, you go to Heaven, you go to Hell, you go to Heaven..."), and we can do literally nothing to influence His decision in one way or the other. I'm not trying to be a dick, but what exactly draws people to Calvinism? Is it the idea that you can commit as many sins as you want, because you just may be one of the Elect, and, if you're not, you had a good run anyway? I'm very curious.

I'm sure that is a part of it to some degree, but Calvinism has many other ideas (democracy within the church, etc) that is not within Lutheranism (the Lutheran Church has a bishop system).

Another is that I expect that the people drawn to Calvinism are likely to believe that they are part of the elect and aren't particularly looking for a "get out of Hell free" card to commit as many sins as they want .  One of the attractive features of Calvinism compared to Arminianism is that you don't have to worry about falling out of grace.  God won't let you do that.

I'm a bit surprised by socialisthoosier's criticism. Usually we're attacked for being Puritan prudes . Ernest is correct though, election and perseverance of the saints are the most comforting parts of our theology.

How do we know who the elect are?

We don't know. Well, you can know your own salvation, but it's not like I can tell who is saved or who is damned.

That seems like a bizarre way to live life.

How is that bizarre? It seems far more bizarre to think that any human would have the knowledge or power required to judge the eternal fate of another, a task that I would expect most religious people to reserve to their god(s).

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

If you know you're going to heaven, why not kill yourself and get it over with?

Because you trust that God will see to it that you die at the proper time?

[Zioneer]

The extent to which Calvinism is 'back' is also the extent to which it was never really gone. I don't think the size or influence of mainline Calvinist denominations has really fluctuated all that much in recent years (DC Al Fine or Mung Beans or somebody can correct me on this if I'm wrong about that), and as Tweed mentioned generalized conservative evangelicalism is prone to a sort of cyclical theological faddishness.

There's a cycle between Calvinism and Arminianism within the Baptist movement. Calvinism is definitely on the upswing right now. You're right though. There isn't any massive growth in the Reformed faith. We're growing yes, but it's slow.

The way I understand it, God, in Calvinism, simply plays Duck, Duck, Goose with people ("You go to Heaven, you go to Heaven, you go to Hell, you go to Heaven..."), and we can do literally nothing to influence His decision in one way or the other. I'm not trying to be a dick, but what exactly draws people to Calvinism? Is it the idea that you can commit as many sins as you want, because you just may be one of the Elect, and, if you're not, you had a good run anyway? I'm very curious.

I'm sure that is a part of it to some degree, but Calvinism has many other ideas (democracy within the church, etc) that is not within Lutheranism (the Lutheran Church has a bishop system).

Another is that I expect that the people drawn to Calvinism are likely to believe that they are part of the elect and aren't particularly looking for a "get out of Hell free" card to commit as many sins as they want .  One of the attractive features of Calvinism compared to Arminianism is that you don't have to worry about falling out of grace.  God won't let you do that.

I'm a bit surprised by socialisthoosier's criticism. Usually we're attacked for being Puritan prudes . Ernest is correct though, election and perseverance of the saints are the most comforting parts of our theology.

How do we know who the elect are?

We don't know. Well, you can know your own salvation, but it's not like I can tell who is saved or who is damned.

That seems like a bizarre way to live life.

How is that bizarre? It seems far more bizarre to think that any human would have the knowledge or power required to judge the eternal fate of another, a task that I would expect most religious people to reserve to their god(s).

Well, I meant more of the idea that certain people are automatically saved or dammed, and that you have no idea who is which, and that you can't do a thing (good deeds, for example) to change that.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

If you know you're going to heaven, why not kill yourself and get it over with?

Because you trust that God will see to it that you die at the proper time?

If I knew I was going to heaven, I'd probably jump off a cliff. The proper time can go  itself.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

If you know you're going to heaven, why not kill yourself and get it over with?

Because you trust that God will see to it that you die at the proper time?

If I knew I was going to heaven, I'd probably jump off a cliff. The proper time can go  itself.

But then you would not be trusting God and thus would have no assurance of heaven.

[Deus Naturae]

The extent to which Calvinism is 'back' is also the extent to which it was never really gone. I don't think the size or influence of mainline Calvinist denominations has really fluctuated all that much in recent years (DC Al Fine or Mung Beans or somebody can correct me on this if I'm wrong about that), and as Tweed mentioned generalized conservative evangelicalism is prone to a sort of cyclical theological faddishness.

There's a cycle between Calvinism and Arminianism within the Baptist movement. Calvinism is definitely on the upswing right now. You're right though. There isn't any massive growth in the Reformed faith. We're growing yes, but it's slow.

The way I understand it, God, in Calvinism, simply plays Duck, Duck, Goose with people ("You go to Heaven, you go to Heaven, you go to Hell, you go to Heaven..."), and we can do literally nothing to influence His decision in one way or the other. I'm not trying to be a dick, but what exactly draws people to Calvinism? Is it the idea that you can commit as many sins as you want, because you just may be one of the Elect, and, if you're not, you had a good run anyway? I'm very curious.

I'm sure that is a part of it to some degree, but Calvinism has many other ideas (democracy within the church, etc) that is not within Lutheranism (the Lutheran Church has a bishop system).

Another is that I expect that the people drawn to Calvinism are likely to believe that they are part of the elect and aren't particularly looking for a "get out of Hell free" card to commit as many sins as they want .  One of the attractive features of Calvinism compared to Arminianism is that you don't have to worry about falling out of grace.  God won't let you do that.

I'm a bit surprised by socialisthoosier's criticism. Usually we're attacked for being Puritan prudes . Ernest is correct though, election and perseverance of the saints are the most comforting parts of our theology.

How do we know who the elect are?

We don't know. Well, you can know your own salvation, but it's not like I can tell who is saved or who is damned.

If you know you're going to heaven, why not kill yourself and get it over with?

I think he meant that you know your own salvation when you get saved. I don't think Calvinism teaches that a person can know if they are part of the Elect.

[The Mikado]

The extent to which Calvinism is 'back' is also the extent to which it was never really gone. I don't think the size or influence of mainline Calvinist denominations has really fluctuated all that much in recent years (DC Al Fine or Mung Beans or somebody can correct me on this if I'm wrong about that), and as Tweed mentioned generalized conservative evangelicalism is prone to a sort of cyclical theological faddishness.

There's a cycle between Calvinism and Arminianism within the Baptist movement. Calvinism is definitely on the upswing right now. You're right though. There isn't any massive growth in the Reformed faith. We're growing yes, but it's slow.

The way I understand it, God, in Calvinism, simply plays Duck, Duck, Goose with people ("You go to Heaven, you go to Heaven, you go to Hell, you go to Heaven..."), and we can do literally nothing to influence His decision in one way or the other. I'm not trying to be a dick, but what exactly draws people to Calvinism? Is it the idea that you can commit as many sins as you want, because you just may be one of the Elect, and, if you're not, you had a good run anyway? I'm very curious.

I'm sure that is a part of it to some degree, but Calvinism has many other ideas (democracy within the church, etc) that is not within Lutheranism (the Lutheran Church has a bishop system).

Another is that I expect that the people drawn to Calvinism are likely to believe that they are part of the elect and aren't particularly looking for a "get out of Hell free" card to commit as many sins as they want .  One of the attractive features of Calvinism compared to Arminianism is that you don't have to worry about falling out of grace.  God won't let you do that.

I'm a bit surprised by socialisthoosier's criticism. Usually we're attacked for being Puritan prudes . Ernest is correct though, election and perseverance of the saints are the most comforting parts of our theology.

How do we know who the elect are?

We don't know. Well, you can know your own salvation, but it's not like I can tell who is saved or who is damned.

That seems like a bizarre way to live life.

How is that bizarre? It seems far more bizarre to think that any human would have the knowledge or power required to judge the eternal fate of another, a task that I would expect most religious people to reserve to their god(s).

Well, I meant more of the idea that certain people are automatically saved or dammed, and that you have no idea who is which, and that you can't do a thing (good deeds, for example) to change that.

Calvinism embraces the idea that there is no such thing as a good person because committing one sin is tantamount to committing all of them so the gossiper is just as damned by his actions as the murderer, therefore no one is saved by virtue of his/her actions.  Only God can decide who is and isn't chosen to be saved and there's not much (anything) you can do to sway that judgement.

It can be a very bleak idea, but the dyed in the wool Calvinist would say that it doesn't matter if it's bleak or not, it's how it works.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

If you know you're going to heaven, why not kill yourself and get it over with?

Because you trust that God will see to it that you die at the proper time?

If I knew I was going to heaven, I'd probably jump off a cliff. The proper time can go  itself.

But then you would not be trusting God and thus would have no assurance of heaven.

But would that suicide have not been predestined by God?

[Zioneer]

The extent to which Calvinism is 'back' is also the extent to which it was never really gone. I don't think the size or influence of mainline Calvinist denominations has really fluctuated all that much in recent years (DC Al Fine or Mung Beans or somebody can correct me on this if I'm wrong about that), and as Tweed mentioned generalized conservative evangelicalism is prone to a sort of cyclical theological faddishness.

There's a cycle between Calvinism and Arminianism within the Baptist movement. Calvinism is definitely on the upswing right now. You're right though. There isn't any massive growth in the Reformed faith. We're growing yes, but it's slow.

The way I understand it, God, in Calvinism, simply plays Duck, Duck, Goose with people ("You go to Heaven, you go to Heaven, you go to Hell, you go to Heaven..."), and we can do literally nothing to influence His decision in one way or the other. I'm not trying to be a dick, but what exactly draws people to Calvinism? Is it the idea that you can commit as many sins as you want, because you just may be one of the Elect, and, if you're not, you had a good run anyway? I'm very curious.

I'm sure that is a part of it to some degree, but Calvinism has many other ideas (democracy within the church, etc) that is not within Lutheranism (the Lutheran Church has a bishop system).

Another is that I expect that the people drawn to Calvinism are likely to believe that they are part of the elect and aren't particularly looking for a "get out of Hell free" card to commit as many sins as they want .  One of the attractive features of Calvinism compared to Arminianism is that you don't have to worry about falling out of grace.  God won't let you do that.

I'm a bit surprised by socialisthoosier's criticism. Usually we're attacked for being Puritan prudes . Ernest is correct though, election and perseverance of the saints are the most comforting parts of our theology.

How do we know who the elect are?

We don't know. Well, you can know your own salvation, but it's not like I can tell who is saved or who is damned.

That seems like a bizarre way to live life.

How is that bizarre? It seems far more bizarre to think that any human would have the knowledge or power required to judge the eternal fate of another, a task that I would expect most religious people to reserve to their god(s).

Well, I meant more of the idea that certain people are automatically saved or dammed, and that you have no idea who is which, and that you can't do a thing (good deeds, for example) to change that.

Calvinism embraces the idea that there is no such thing as a good person because committing one sin is tantamount to committing all of them so the gossiper is just as damned by his actions as the murderer, therefore no one is saved by virtue of his/her actions.  Only God can decide who is and isn't chosen to be saved and there's not much (anything) you can do to sway that judgement.

It can be a very bleak idea, but the dyed in the wool Calvinist would say that it doesn't matter if it's bleak or not, it's how it works.

I get that as a Mormon I can't throw stones theologically speaking, but that seems absurd. So no matter how good of a life I lead, no matter how much I follow the bible, whatever, I can do nothing to affect my salvation? Then why do humans live? What's the point of existing on the world without any way of affecting your salvation?

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

The extent to which Calvinism is 'back' is also the extent to which it was never really gone. I don't think the size or influence of mainline Calvinist denominations has really fluctuated all that much in recent years (DC Al Fine or Mung Beans or somebody can correct me on this if I'm wrong about that), and as Tweed mentioned generalized conservative evangelicalism is prone to a sort of cyclical theological faddishness.

There's a cycle between Calvinism and Arminianism within the Baptist movement. Calvinism is definitely on the upswing right now. You're right though. There isn't any massive growth in the Reformed faith. We're growing yes, but it's slow.

The way I understand it, God, in Calvinism, simply plays Duck, Duck, Goose with people ("You go to Heaven, you go to Heaven, you go to Hell, you go to Heaven..."), and we can do literally nothing to influence His decision in one way or the other. I'm not trying to be a dick, but what exactly draws people to Calvinism? Is it the idea that you can commit as many sins as you want, because you just may be one of the Elect, and, if you're not, you had a good run anyway? I'm very curious.

I'm sure that is a part of it to some degree, but Calvinism has many other ideas (democracy within the church, etc) that is not within Lutheranism (the Lutheran Church has a bishop system).

Another is that I expect that the people drawn to Calvinism are likely to believe that they are part of the elect and aren't particularly looking for a "get out of Hell free" card to commit as many sins as they want .  One of the attractive features of Calvinism compared to Arminianism is that you don't have to worry about falling out of grace.  God won't let you do that.

I'm a bit surprised by socialisthoosier's criticism. Usually we're attacked for being Puritan prudes . Ernest is correct though, election and perseverance of the saints are the most comforting parts of our theology.

How do we know who the elect are?

We don't know. Well, you can know your own salvation, but it's not like I can tell who is saved or who is damned.

If you know you're going to heaven, why not kill yourself and get it over with?

I think he meant that you know your own salvation when you get saved. I don't think Calvinism teaches that a person can know if they are part of the Elect.

Well of course you know what's going to happen to you when it happens. The point is that, if everyone's eventual fate vis-a-vis the afterlife is fixed, then there's no point in doing good deeds and you can just become a hedonist.

[Deus Naturae]

The extent to which Calvinism is 'back' is also the extent to which it was never really gone. I don't think the size or influence of mainline Calvinist denominations has really fluctuated all that much in recent years (DC Al Fine or Mung Beans or somebody can correct me on this if I'm wrong about that), and as Tweed mentioned generalized conservative evangelicalism is prone to a sort of cyclical theological faddishness.

There's a cycle between Calvinism and Arminianism within the Baptist movement. Calvinism is definitely on the upswing right now. You're right though. There isn't any massive growth in the Reformed faith. We're growing yes, but it's slow.

The way I understand it, God, in Calvinism, simply plays Duck, Duck, Goose with people ("You go to Heaven, you go to Heaven, you go to Hell, you go to Heaven..."), and we can do literally nothing to influence His decision in one way or the other. I'm not trying to be a dick, but what exactly draws people to Calvinism? Is it the idea that you can commit as many sins as you want, because you just may be one of the Elect, and, if you're not, you had a good run anyway? I'm very curious.

I'm sure that is a part of it to some degree, but Calvinism has many other ideas (democracy within the church, etc) that is not within Lutheranism (the Lutheran Church has a bishop system).

Another is that I expect that the people drawn to Calvinism are likely to believe that they are part of the elect and aren't particularly looking for a "get out of Hell free" card to commit as many sins as they want .  One of the attractive features of Calvinism compared to Arminianism is that you don't have to worry about falling out of grace.  God won't let you do that.

I'm a bit surprised by socialisthoosier's criticism. Usually we're attacked for being Puritan prudes . Ernest is correct though, election and perseverance of the saints are the most comforting parts of our theology.

How do we know who the elect are?

We don't know. Well, you can know your own salvation, but it's not like I can tell who is saved or who is damned.

If you know you're going to heaven, why not kill yourself and get it over with?

I think he meant that you know your own salvation when you get saved. I don't think Calvinism teaches that a person can know if they are part of the Elect.

Well of course you know what's going to happen to you when it happens. The point is that, if everyone's eventual fate vis-a-vis the afterlife is fixed, then there's no point in doing good deeds and you can just become a hedonist.

Yeah, but if became a hedonist you probably weren't predestined for salvation in the first place.

Of course, the question of why God would use random selection as the criteria for salvation in the first place remains. If humans, by their nature, are deserving of eternal damnation (which I assume Calvinists believe) then why would God choose to suspend that punishment at all? And if He is going to suspend it, surely there must be some better criteria for suspension?

Furthermore, the initial premise (that all humans deserve eternal damnation) seems dubious. I would assume that Calvinists would cite Genesis 3 (the story of the Fall of Man), but that brings up the question of the validity of ancient Hebrew truth-claims about human nature. Not to mention, where does that leave Jesus? I've never quite understood how exactly the Crucifixion is supposed to have cleansed human sins, but if humans still deserve eternal condemnation because of the Fall, wouldn't that render Christ's sacrifice irrelevant? Maybe I'm not understanding how Christian theology works.

[DC Al Fine]

The extent to which Calvinism is 'back' is also the extent to which it was never really gone. I don't think the size or influence of mainline Calvinist denominations has really fluctuated all that much in recent years (DC Al Fine or Mung Beans or somebody can correct me on this if I'm wrong about that), and as Tweed mentioned generalized conservative evangelicalism is prone to a sort of cyclical theological faddishness.

There's a cycle between Calvinism and Arminianism within the Baptist movement. Calvinism is definitely on the upswing right now. You're right though. There isn't any massive growth in the Reformed faith. We're growing yes, but it's slow.

The way I understand it, God, in Calvinism, simply plays Duck, Duck, Goose with people ("You go to Heaven, you go to Heaven, you go to Hell, you go to Heaven..."), and we can do literally nothing to influence His decision in one way or the other. I'm not trying to be a dick, but what exactly draws people to Calvinism? Is it the idea that you can commit as many sins as you want, because you just may be one of the Elect, and, if you're not, you had a good run anyway? I'm very curious.

I'm sure that is a part of it to some degree, but Calvinism has many other ideas (democracy within the church, etc) that is not within Lutheranism (the Lutheran Church has a bishop system).

Another is that I expect that the people drawn to Calvinism are likely to believe that they are part of the elect and aren't particularly looking for a "get out of Hell free" card to commit as many sins as they want .  One of the attractive features of Calvinism compared to Arminianism is that you don't have to worry about falling out of grace.  God won't let you do that.

I'm a bit surprised by socialisthoosier's criticism. Usually we're attacked for being Puritan prudes . Ernest is correct though, election and perseverance of the saints are the most comforting parts of our theology.

How do we know who the elect are?

We don't know. Well, you can know your own salvation, but it's not like I can tell who is saved or who is damned.

That seems like a bizarre way to live life.

How is that bizarre? It seems far more bizarre to think that any human would have the knowledge or power required to judge the eternal fate of another, a task that I would expect most religious people to reserve to their god(s).

Well, I meant more of the idea that certain people are automatically saved or dammed, and that you have no idea who is which, and that you can't do a thing (good deeds, for example) to change that.

Calvinism embraces the idea that there is no such thing as a good person because committing one sin is tantamount to committing all of them so the gossiper is just as damned by his actions as the murderer, therefore no one is saved by virtue of his/her actions.  Only God can decide who is and isn't chosen to be saved and there's not much (anything) you can do to sway that judgement.

It can be a very bleak idea, but the dyed in the wool Calvinist would say that it doesn't matter if it's bleak or not, it's how it works.

Yes and no. Total depravity is the idea that our sinful nature touches every facet of our being, even our good works.

Remember when Jesus says "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others."? This is a good example. Confession and praising God are good things, but Jesus is calling them out because they are doing those things to look good and pious in the eyes of men. Therefore they are violating the first commandment by putting themselves before God. The hypocrites' sinful nature sullies his otherwise good works.

This ties in with the Calvinist idea that all sin is just a violation of the first commandment in one way or another. So while we don't think the gossiper commits the same evil act as the murderer, they have the same evil intention; putting something else ahead of God in their lives.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

The extent to which Calvinism is 'back' is also the extent to which it was never really gone. I don't think the size or influence of mainline Calvinist denominations has really fluctuated all that much in recent years (DC Al Fine or Mung Beans or somebody can correct me on this if I'm wrong about that), and as Tweed mentioned generalized conservative evangelicalism is prone to a sort of cyclical theological faddishness.

There's a cycle between Calvinism and Arminianism within the Baptist movement. Calvinism is definitely on the upswing right now. You're right though. There isn't any massive growth in the Reformed faith. We're growing yes, but it's slow.

The way I understand it, God, in Calvinism, simply plays Duck, Duck, Goose with people ("You go to Heaven, you go to Heaven, you go to Hell, you go to Heaven..."), and we can do literally nothing to influence His decision in one way or the other. I'm not trying to be a dick, but what exactly draws people to Calvinism? Is it the idea that you can commit as many sins as you want, because you just may be one of the Elect, and, if you're not, you had a good run anyway? I'm very curious.

I'm sure that is a part of it to some degree, but Calvinism has many other ideas (democracy within the church, etc) that is not within Lutheranism (the Lutheran Church has a bishop system).

Another is that I expect that the people drawn to Calvinism are likely to believe that they are part of the elect and aren't particularly looking for a "get out of Hell free" card to commit as many sins as they want .  One of the attractive features of Calvinism compared to Arminianism is that you don't have to worry about falling out of grace.  God won't let you do that.

I'm a bit surprised by socialisthoosier's criticism. Usually we're attacked for being Puritan prudes . Ernest is correct though, election and perseverance of the saints are the most comforting parts of our theology.

How do we know who the elect are?

We don't know. Well, you can know your own salvation, but it's not like I can tell who is saved or who is damned.

That seems like a bizarre way to live life.

How is that bizarre? It seems far more bizarre to think that any human would have the knowledge or power required to judge the eternal fate of another, a task that I would expect most religious people to reserve to their god(s).

Well, I meant more of the idea that certain people are automatically saved or dammed, and that you have no idea who is which, and that you can't do a thing (good deeds, for example) to change that.

Calvinism embraces the idea that there is no such thing as a good person because committing one sin is tantamount to committing all of them so the gossiper is just as damned by his actions as the murderer, therefore no one is saved by virtue of his/her actions.  Only God can decide who is and isn't chosen to be saved and there's not much (anything) you can do to sway that judgement.

It can be a very bleak idea, but the dyed in the wool Calvinist would say that it doesn't matter if it's bleak or not, it's how it works.

Yes and no. Total depravity is the idea that our sinful nature touches every facet of our being, even our good works.

Remember when Jesus says "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others."? This is a good example. Confession and praising God are good things, but Jesus is calling them out because they are doing those things to look good and pious in the eyes of men. Therefore they are violating the first commandment by putting themselves before God. The hypocrites' sinful nature sullies his otherwise good works.

This ties in with the Calvinist idea that all sin is just a violation of the first commandment in one way or another. So while we don't think the gossiper commits the same evil act as the murderer, they have the same evil intention; putting something else ahead of God in their lives.

Be careful not to confuse intentions for effects.  When a person commits murder, the effect may be that they are putting their own evil desires ahead of God.  However, typically that never enters the mind of the perpetrator.  People commit murder for all sorts of reasons and little of it involves God in one way or another, putting aside things like holy wars and jihads.  In order for an action to go in violation of the First Commandment, that action must be done with full knowledge that the law is being broken, otherwise the perpetrator is not giving his or her full consent.  Therefore, we cannot apply the First Commandment to all sin.  If it were that simple, the remaining nine commandments would be unnecessary and redundant.

However, that being said, Jesus reduced the Ten Commandments to two - loving God and loving your neighbor.  If the sin doesn't go in violation of the first order, it goes in violation of the second and vice-versa.  That is why murder and taking the Lord's name in vain, while both sinful, cannot be attributed to the same broken law.  It is dangerous to suggest that committing one sin is equivalent to committing all sin, or that all sins are of similar measurement.