SENATE BILL: The Duke-Scott Educating The People Reform (Debating)
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  SENATE BILL: The Duke-Scott Educating The People Reform (Debating)
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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: The Duke-Scott Educating The People Reform (Debating)  (Read 11922 times)
Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2014, 06:00:27 PM »

What does "recess" for high schoolers consist of, anyway?

Drinking in the school parking lot or going off campus to hook up with someone for an hour or so.
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2014, 07:20:14 PM »

AYE
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shua
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« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2014, 09:02:23 PM »

If we want schools to offer these let's just fund it as opposed to a mandate that is probably unconstitutional.

I don't understand section IV.  Are the teachers choosing the textbooks or are the school districts?

It's not really a mandate.  The government decides how the public schools are run and provide the appropriate funding for their services.  The teachers choose textbooks that are permitted by the districts.


It is a mandate since it says to schools "do this, and maybe we'll help you fund it if you apply for it." Though I guess it could be interpreted as a mandate on the school district rather than the region, so not unconstitutional.   Still, I will not vote on any education bill that further restricts the regional and local role in education.   If regions are going to be completely subservient to national policy when it comes to something like education, we might as well not have regional governments at all.
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Cincinnatus
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« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2014, 09:46:08 PM »

Vote on Amendment 60:40 by TNF:

Aye (6): Tyrion, TNF, bore, Alfred, Lumine, and Talleyrand
Nay (3):  Yankee, shua, and DC al Fine
Abstain (0):

Didn't Vote (1):  Goldwater

The amendment has been adopted.
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shua
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« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2014, 10:31:22 PM »

amendment
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Cincinnatus
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« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2014, 10:37:08 PM »

Can we discuss the actual figures we're considering for Section 2? 

Lumine, friendly on shua's amendment?

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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2014, 11:06:35 PM »

What is "misquoting Edmund Burke" mean actually? Tongue


See wht I am saying, you cannot dictate every little thing from on high. You have to establish a process that can followe to make these determinations.
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bore
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« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2014, 05:59:25 AM »


A few concerns:

1. A lot of the stuff in section 1 is very vague- what does healthcare mean for example?
2. What about rural schools with like 20 people, should they have on site guidance counselors? on't that cost a fortune?
3. The textbook stuff seems to be a disaster waiting to happen, for one thing, most teachers won't need a thousand dollars worth, but others might need more. As well, not every teacher  needs to individually choose the textbook, it makes sense for that to be a schoolwide system, so classes are interchangeable, and there's continuity when people change classes or move up a year. Finally, and this is the big problem to me, even banning creationism (however that's defined) still leaves a huge amount of possible objectionable choices. What about a book teaching homosexuality is evil? Or one advocating, say, atlasian exceptionilism?

Healthcare is pretty much a standard benefit for students.  That part of the bill merely reenforces it.  This bill was crafted shortly before or around the time the glitches in our healthcare system were brought to light, so school-provided medical care might need to be further explored.

As for your second point, I'm honestly not familiar with any rural schools that only have twenty students.  But, regardless of how large a school is, I think we should provide students with access to guidance counselors.

Thirdly, I agree that the textbook section can be improved and the means of funding made more flexible.  We're going to run into problems no matter how we reform our textbook standards, and those problems won't go away as long as education is so politicized, but the least we can do is provide some oversight so that students aren't being taught to a biased or unscientific curriculum.



Hmm, things in atlasia are obviously different, but in the UK schools are just, well schools, and the idea that they'd be offering healthcare of any sort is seen as a bit weird. But if healthcare is seen as a duty of schools then I suppose I'm OK with that.

I was thinking of places like the Aleutian islands, which have a very small population and are quite isolated. And, sure, it would be nice for them to have an on site guidance counselor at all times, just like it would be nice for that school to have, say, a large library, but it's not essential in the same way that it is for a 1000 strong school.

I think the problem is the ban on creationism seems a little ad hoc, and doesn't seem to solve the main problem, that of teachers using their influence to teach kids something awful. I would probably give the power to buy to departments, instead of individual teachers, subject to moderation by the regional boards, with some agreed standards. It's probably also better to have an agreed list of texts that can be purchased (that can be easily added to, and is very large) than certain texts being excluded.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2014, 08:31:03 PM »

I don't know what you're talking about, Yankee. Shua's suggestion addresses a real problem that is well within the spirit of this law.

WE seem to be speaking different languages these days, Nix baby. Tongue


We have numerous issues where scientific process is being trampled upon, my point is we need to restore the credibility of science in general rather then picking and choosing the politically hot areas of concern only to then foist upon them without any concerns for theo thers.
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shua
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« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2014, 08:39:07 PM »

I don't know what you're talking about, Yankee. Shua's suggestion addresses a real problem that is well within the spirit of this law.

Thank you. Indeed it is.

There is a certain history text used in classrooms across Atlasia which takes a couple of Mr Burke’s words out of context in order to make him appear misogynist when in fact the statesman was criticizing the misogynists who murdered Marie Antoinette.  That historian must therefore been either extremely bad at reading comprehension, or more likely, this is just one example of many of him bending the facts to suit his ideological agenda.  In either case, should we allow our students to be subjected to such fabrications?  This is just the tip of the iceberg but we need to take a stand somewhere.  As Edmund Burke famously (never actually) said “All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”    If teachers cannot be trusted to guide their students when it comes to well known controversies about evolution or climate change, how can we trust them on more arcane but, when put together, no less consequential matters of history and philosophy?  Or is accuracy in the humanities unimportant?
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shua
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« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2014, 08:54:07 PM »

To that I would add that Atlasian law has prohibited schools from using federal funds to teach creationism since at least 2007.

Yep. Schools are prohibited from using federal funds to teach that creationism might possibly be true, and also from teaching that it can be tested either way by science.  So basically students just have to take it on faith that it's wrong.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2014, 11:07:22 PM »

Lumine, what is your opinion on the amendment?
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Lumine
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« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2014, 02:44:49 PM »

I was confused at first in regards to Edmund Burke (although I was familiar with the mentioned quote on good and evil), but Shua explanation convinced me. It does look like a detail too specific, but sacrificing accuracy is not something we should ignore in regards to an educational reform. Perhaps expanding it to avoid other common mistakes and misquotes is something we could do as well.

Amendment friendly.
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bore
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« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2014, 03:12:10 PM »

If we're going to do this for everyone and thing which is eligible, we'll have a bill longer than war and peace. The most we should do is set the criteria by which textbooks are evaluated.
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Cincinnatus
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« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2014, 03:57:52 PM »

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Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.
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bore
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« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2014, 04:38:19 PM »
« Edited: April 16, 2014, 04:43:37 PM by Senator bore »

I'm objecting.

If we're going to do this for everyone and thing which is eligible, we'll have a bill longer than war and peace. The most we should do is set the criteria by which textbooks are evaluated.

I believe that was Shua's point. It's certainly the one that I was trying to make. In any case, the 2007 law that pointed already has the subject covered, unless the Senate wants to change that.

I hope so, if it was serious, I was going to introduce my own amendment banning textbooks that use the word decimation in a way that means more than 10% Wink

Also, proposing my own amendment:


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Cincinnatus
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« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2014, 04:49:35 PM »


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Status:  Objection filed by Senator bore.  A vote is now open on the above Amendment.  Senators please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2014, 08:05:07 PM »

NAY
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shua
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« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2014, 08:44:57 PM »

Aye
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2014, 08:58:05 PM »

If we want schools to offer these let's just fund it as opposed to a mandate that is probably unconstitutional.

I don't understand section IV.  Are the teachers choosing the textbooks or are the school districts?

It's not really a mandate.  The government decides how the public schools are run and provide the appropriate funding for their services.  The teachers choose textbooks that are permitted by the districts.


It is a mandate since it says to schools "do this, and maybe we'll help you fund it if you apply for it." Though I guess it could be interpreted as a mandate on the school district rather than the region, so not unconstitutional.   Still, I will not vote on any education bill that further restricts the regional and local role in education.   If regions are going to be completely subservient to national policy when it comes to something like education, we might as well not have regional governments at all.

The bill doesn't place any restrictions on the regions, it just establishes some very basic standards for what the public schools provide so that they may be successful.  If the regions feel that these services are best provided a different way, they will still be able to do that.


A few concerns:

1. A lot of the stuff in section 1 is very vague- what does healthcare mean for example?
2. What about rural schools with like 20 people, should they have on site guidance counselors? on't that cost a fortune?
3. The textbook stuff seems to be a disaster waiting to happen, for one thing, most teachers won't need a thousand dollars worth, but others might need more. As well, not every teacher  needs to individually choose the textbook, it makes sense for that to be a schoolwide system, so classes are interchangeable, and there's continuity when people change classes or move up a year. Finally, and this is the big problem to me, even banning creationism (however that's defined) still leaves a huge amount of possible objectionable choices. What about a book teaching homosexuality is evil? Or one advocating, say, atlasian exceptionilism?

Healthcare is pretty much a standard benefit for students.  That part of the bill merely reenforces it.  This bill was crafted shortly before or around the time the glitches in our healthcare system were brought to light, so school-provided medical care might need to be further explored.

As for your second point, I'm honestly not familiar with any rural schools that only have twenty students.  But, regardless of how large a school is, I think we should provide students with access to guidance counselors.

Thirdly, I agree that the textbook section can be improved and the means of funding made more flexible.  We're going to run into problems no matter how we reform our textbook standards, and those problems won't go away as long as education is so politicized, but the least we can do is provide some oversight so that students aren't being taught to a biased or unscientific curriculum.



Hmm, things in atlasia are obviously different, but in the UK schools are just, well schools, and the idea that they'd be offering healthcare of any sort is seen as a bit weird. But if healthcare is seen as a duty of schools then I suppose I'm OK with that.

I was thinking of places like the Aleutian islands, which have a very small population and are quite isolated. And, sure, it would be nice for them to have an on site guidance counselor at all times, just like it would be nice for that school to have, say, a large library, but it's not essential in the same way that it is for a 1000 strong school.

I think the problem is the ban on creationism seems a little ad hoc, and doesn't seem to solve the main problem, that of teachers using their influence to teach kids something awful. I would probably give the power to buy to departments, instead of individual teachers, subject to moderation by the regional boards, with some agreed standards. It's probably also better to have an agreed list of texts that can be purchased (that can be easily added to, and is very large) than certain texts being excluded.

I'm okay with that change as long as the teachers have some say in the books they use to teach their material.
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shua
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« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2014, 09:34:13 PM »

Is it too late to withdraw my amendment in favor of bore's?  (If bore's fails I would reintroduce mine.)
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President Tyrion
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« Reply #46 on: April 17, 2014, 12:51:33 AM »

Nay
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #47 on: April 17, 2014, 12:58:09 AM »

Yes, the vote is the cuttof unfortunately. The best way is to fail it then.

NAY
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bore
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« Reply #48 on: April 17, 2014, 04:01:36 AM »

Nay
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TNF
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« Reply #49 on: April 17, 2014, 09:05:30 AM »

NAY
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