SENATE BILL: The Duke-Scott Educating The People Reform (Debating)
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  SENATE BILL: The Duke-Scott Educating The People Reform (Debating)
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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: The Duke-Scott Educating The People Reform (Debating)  (Read 11920 times)
President Tyrion
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« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2014, 05:15:24 AM »

What is the point of the amendment offered? Schools must offer those things and if they cannot afford it, they can apply for grants so they can afford it. Why do we need to change the wording? So we will set a limit? Do we even know how much money these needy schools will need?

It's not enough to say you must do something and you can apply for grants. What if the grants are denied for some reason, or they aren't given enough, or the grant office takes its sweet time?  In that case the schools are required by law to do something they don't have the money for.

Besides that, there are those of us who believe education ought to be pretty much a regional and local matter.  Nothing in the Constitution gives the federal government the authority to micromanage schools, as much as we seem to like to.



This can be corrected without removing the mandate.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #76 on: April 24, 2014, 11:44:41 AM »

Our reasoning was that the federal government wouldn't deny these schools grants to comply with section one arbitrarily. We don't know how much it will cost to bring these needy schools up to speed, and placing a $ amount on it is pretty short sighted. Even if we appropriate $3B for grants, the schools will still need to get approval, so this amendment doesn't change that.
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Cincinnatus
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« Reply #77 on: April 24, 2014, 08:04:25 PM »

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Sponsor Feedback: None Given
Status: Objection filed by TNF.  A vote is now open on the above Amendment.  Senators please vote Aye, Nay or Abstain.
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shua
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« Reply #78 on: April 24, 2014, 08:53:11 PM »

AYE
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shua
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« Reply #79 on: April 24, 2014, 08:54:18 PM »

Our reasoning was that the federal government wouldn't deny these schools grants to comply with section one arbitrarily. We don't know how much it will cost to bring these needy schools up to speed, and placing a $ amount on it is pretty short sighted. Even if we appropriate $3B for grants, the schools will still need to get approval, so this amendment doesn't change that.

If we are not putting a number on it, how are we going to budget for it?
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Goldwater
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« Reply #80 on: April 24, 2014, 11:36:33 PM »

AYE
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #81 on: April 24, 2014, 11:37:59 PM »

Our reasoning was that the federal government wouldn't deny these schools grants to comply with section one arbitrarily. We don't know how much it will cost to bring these needy schools up to speed, and placing a $ amount on it is pretty short sighted. Even if we appropriate $3B for grants, the schools will still need to get approval, so this amendment doesn't change that.

If we are not putting a number on it, how are we going to budget for it?

God knows! But I am sure it will be more than $3 billion before it's all said and done. Hard telling how many at need schools exist out there.
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President Tyrion
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« Reply #82 on: April 25, 2014, 05:20:44 AM »

Nay
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bore
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« Reply #83 on: April 25, 2014, 07:17:46 AM »

Nay because of section 1
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Lumine
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« Reply #84 on: April 25, 2014, 04:36:05 PM »

Nay.
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TNF
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« Reply #85 on: April 26, 2014, 08:51:46 AM »

NAY
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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
Alfred F. Jones
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« Reply #86 on: April 26, 2014, 11:18:56 AM »

Nay.
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Cincinnatus
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« Reply #87 on: April 27, 2014, 06:43:02 PM »

Vote on Amendment 60:68 by shua:

Aye (2): Goldwater, and shua
Nay (5): Alfred, TNF, Lumine, bore, and Tyrion
Abstain (3): Talleyrand, DC, and Yankee

Didn't Vote (1):

The amendment has been rejected.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #88 on: April 27, 2014, 11:45:30 PM »

What is the issue with recess? Does the senate not like it?
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #89 on: April 28, 2014, 05:44:36 AM »

I actually would have voted Aye, if it were just the recess portion. I also agree that we need to hve some handle on the cost and worry about the wording being cosntitutional in the underlying text for section one. That said, I was unsure about Shua's strcuture as an alternative, so I was undecided and apparently took too long to decide one way or the other. Tongue
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bore
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« Reply #90 on: April 28, 2014, 05:49:42 AM »

What is the issue with recess? Does the senate not like it?

Section 5, as far as I can see, is already covered by section 1, so it's just an unnecessary duplication.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #91 on: April 28, 2014, 05:56:52 AM »

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Gets to the point doesn't it. Tongue

I will object to force a vote if you desire, Duke, since I am the sponsor and I don't think I can declare my own amendment hostile. Wink
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #92 on: April 28, 2014, 11:27:33 AM »

No, I see why it's redundant, but my issue is that for legal and liability purposes, we may need to have the schools given high school seniors permission to leave campus. For example, if a student leaves campus and gets killed when he should've been at school, we would know if they had given him permission to leave or not.
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shua
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« Reply #93 on: April 28, 2014, 12:05:18 PM »

No, I see why it's redundant, but my issue is that for legal and liability purposes, we may need to have the schools given high school seniors permission to leave campus. For example, if a student leaves campus and gets killed when he should've been at school, we would know if they had given him permission to leave or not.

Why would that apply specifically to high school seniors at recess and not otherwise?
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #94 on: April 28, 2014, 12:12:46 PM »

No, I see why it's redundant, but my issue is that for legal and liability purposes, we may need to have the schools given high school seniors permission to leave campus. For example, if a student leaves campus and gets killed when he should've been at school, we would know if they had given him permission to leave or not.

Why would that apply specifically to high school seniors at recess and not otherwise?

What do you mean not otherwise? Otherwise, they should be in class. Unless we just do as my high school did and allow seniors to just leave campus whenever they want to. Or we can just leave the decisions up to the regional governments and simply do as we are doing now, and say they should get recess, as in they shouldn't go to class continuously for hours and hours, and nothing more.
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shua
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« Reply #95 on: April 28, 2014, 12:19:12 PM »

No, I see why it's redundant, but my issue is that for legal and liability purposes, we may need to have the schools given high school seniors permission to leave campus. For example, if a student leaves campus and gets killed when he should've been at school, we would know if they had given him permission to leave or not.

Why would that apply specifically to high school seniors at recess and not otherwise?

What do you mean not otherwise? Otherwise, they should be in class. Unless we just do as my high school did and allow seniors to just leave campus whenever they want to. Or we can just leave the decisions up to the regional governments and simply do as we are doing now, and say they should get recess, as in they shouldn't go to class continuously for hours and hours, and nothing more.

I mean how is the solution to the liability issue addressed by giving high school seniors the ability to leave at recess?   Is there not also this liability issue if the student leaves at other times of day, or if a younger student leaves?
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #96 on: April 28, 2014, 01:55:47 PM »

No, I see why it's redundant, but my issue is that for legal and liability purposes, we may need to have the schools given high school seniors permission to leave campus. For example, if a student leaves campus and gets killed when he should've been at school, we would know if they had given him permission to leave or not.

Why would that apply specifically to high school seniors at recess and not otherwise?

What do you mean not otherwise? Otherwise, they should be in class. Unless we just do as my high school did and allow seniors to just leave campus whenever they want to. Or we can just leave the decisions up to the regional governments and simply do as we are doing now, and say they should get recess, as in they shouldn't go to class continuously for hours and hours, and nothing more.

I mean how is the solution to the liability issue addressed by giving high school seniors the ability to leave at recess?   Is there not also this liability issue if the student leaves at other times of day, or if a younger student leaves?

I wish I could tell you the intricacies of school liability, but I can't.

I am just assuming in the event something happens to a student during school hours, the court would want to know whether that student had been released from school or whether they were supposed to be at school but wandered off on their own accord. Some schools are entrusted to protect the children, especially smaller children, during school days. If the child or student wanders off and is harmed, someone could he held liable.

I remember a case involving a young student at a daycare. The child wandered off and drowned in a lake during the time when he was supposed to be under the case of the staff. I forget who was liable. But this type of thing would also apply. Presumably, if a student was given permission or released from school to go elsewhere, the school is free of liability. But I really don't know. Perhaps this isn't something we even need to worry about with this bill especially since I don't remember the details of the case I just cited.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #97 on: April 28, 2014, 07:52:49 PM »

Wouldn't the high school have the motivation for thosel iability reasons to regulate it thus on their own?
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shua
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« Reply #98 on: April 29, 2014, 01:31:00 PM »

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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
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« Reply #99 on: April 29, 2014, 02:19:26 PM »

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What in the blazes? You've gone and taken the teeth out!
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