SENATE BILL: The Duke-Scott Educating The People Reform (Debating)

[bore]

A few concerns:

1. A lot of the stuff in section 1 is very vague- what does healthcare mean for example?
2. What about rural schools with like 20 people, should they have on site guidance counselors? on't that cost a fortune?
3. The textbook stuff seems to be a disaster waiting to happen, for one thing, most teachers won't need a thousand dollars worth, but others might need more. As well, not every teacher  needs to individually choose the textbook, it makes sense for that to be a schoolwide system, so classes are interchangeable, and there's continuity when people change classes or move up a year. Finally, and this is the big problem to me, even banning creationism (however that's defined) still leaves a huge amount of possible objectionable choices. What about a book teaching homosexuality is evil? Or one advocating, say, atlasian exceptionilism?

[bore]

Aye

[bore]

A few concerns:

1. A lot of the stuff in section 1 is very vague- what does healthcare mean for example?
2. What about rural schools with like 20 people, should they have on site guidance counselors? on't that cost a fortune?
3. The textbook stuff seems to be a disaster waiting to happen, for one thing, most teachers won't need a thousand dollars worth, but others might need more. As well, not every teacher  needs to individually choose the textbook, it makes sense for that to be a schoolwide system, so classes are interchangeable, and there's continuity when people change classes or move up a year. Finally, and this is the big problem to me, even banning creationism (however that's defined) still leaves a huge amount of possible objectionable choices. What about a book teaching homosexuality is evil? Or one advocating, say, atlasian exceptionilism?

Healthcare is pretty much a standard benefit for students.  That part of the bill merely reenforces it.  This bill was crafted shortly before or around the time the glitches in our healthcare system were brought to light, so school-provided medical care might need to be further explored.

As for your second point, I'm honestly not familiar with any rural schools that only have twenty students.  But, regardless of how large a school is, I think we should provide students with access to guidance counselors.

Thirdly, I agree that the textbook section can be improved and the means of funding made more flexible.  We're going to run into problems no matter how we reform our textbook standards, and those problems won't go away as long as education is so politicized, but the least we can do is provide some oversight so that students aren't being taught to a biased or unscientific curriculum.

Hmm, things in atlasia are obviously different, but in the UK schools are just, well schools, and the idea that they'd be offering healthcare of any sort is seen as a bit weird. But if healthcare is seen as a duty of schools then I suppose I'm OK with that.

I was thinking of places like the Aleutian islands, which have a very small population and are quite isolated. And, sure, it would be nice for them to have an on site guidance counselor at all times, just like it would be nice for that school to have, say, a large library, but it's not essential in the same way that it is for a 1000 strong school.

I think the problem is the ban on creationism seems a little ad hoc, and doesn't seem to solve the main problem, that of teachers using their influence to teach kids something awful. I would probably give the power to buy to departments, instead of individual teachers, subject to moderation by the regional boards, with some agreed standards. It's probably also better to have an agreed list of texts that can be purchased (that can be easily added to, and is very large) than certain texts being excluded.

[bore]

If we're going to do this for everyone and thing which is eligible, we'll have a bill longer than war and peace. The most we should do is set the criteria by which textbooks are evaluated.

[bore]

I'm objecting.

If we're going to do this for everyone and thing which is eligible, we'll have a bill longer than war and peace. The most we should do is set the criteria by which textbooks are evaluated.

I believe that was Shua's point. It's certainly the one that I was trying to make. In any case, the 2007 law that pointed already has the subject covered, unless the Senate wants to change that.

I hope so, if it was serious, I was going to introduce my own amendment banning textbooks that use the word decimation in a way that means more than 10%

Also, proposing my own amendment:

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[bore]

Nay

[bore]

Nay because of section 1

[bore]

What is the issue with recess? Does the senate not like it?

Section 5, as far as I can see, is already covered by section 1, so it's just an unnecessary duplication.

[bore]

When you add this law to all the laws the Senate has already passed on education, it becomes clear that there is no limit to what the Federal Government is willing to do to limit regional and local control over educational policy.  All in all this is just another brick in the wall.

Are you saying we don't need no education?  no dark sarcasm? 

I think shua feels that the federal government should leave them kids alone.

[bore]

Nay

[bore]

Surely some at least some schools will have wifi already?

[bore]

Doing some quick research, in the US 39% of schools had adequate wifi in late 2013 (source is here- www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/11/more-than-half-of-us-public-schools-dont-have-adequate-wireless-access/281410/ ) so the total cost would be 61% of 73 billion, which is about 45 billion.

[bore]

What sort of lifetime does a wifi network have?

[bore]

I'll offer sirnick's amendment:

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[bore]

I'll offer sirnick's amendment:

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It's a good revision, but I'm not sure what "tourniquet health related needs" means in this context.

A tourniquet is a sort of makeshift bandage, but I can see how the wording might be a bit difficult. Would just day to day needs be ok?

[bore]

I've changed my proposed amendment, btw.

[bore]

There are roughly 25 000 high schools in the US, so assuming the cost is 736 000 and 61% of them don't have wifi, it would cost about 11 billion.

[bore]

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I'd be inclined to leave the maintenance and upgrades to the regions.

[bore]

Yeah, that's a full section replacement.

[bore]

CINCY?!!!!!!


What about my question, bore? Lets resolve it before Cincy proceeds?

What's your question? If it's the one about the rest of the bill I don't see how it's relevant to my amendment.

[bore]

Whoops, not sure how I missed that.

CINCY?!!!!!!


What about my question, bore? Lets resolve it before Cincy proceeds?

What's your question? If it's the one about the rest of the bill I don't see how it's relevant to my amendment.

Yeah, that's a full section replacement.

Also if the region's will be responsibel for the maintenance, shouldn't it state that somewhat?  

And say what "The regions shall be expected to maintain and upgrade the aforementioned wifi networks"

The impression I'm getting is there is nothing we can actually do to make that happen. Obliging it is unconstitutional, the bill already specifies that we can't cut funding in other areas and this isn't a free gift which they wouldn't turn down.

There seems to be a major flaw in the game that the federal government can't force the regions to do anything, short of the nuclear option, so we're either left with the federal government doing everything or it doing nothing. It's all a spectacular mess. I've said it before but if we want to have a functioning game instead of the current situation where both regional and federal governments do their own thing and make laws which contradict or ignore each other, we need to have some sort of clear, simple delineation of powers.

[bore]

Yeah, but it pops up everywhere

[bore]

Yeah, but it pops up everywhere

The hardest part would be deciding who gets what policy area.

A con-con might help if you got enough to agree to even discuss the matter, and then you have to work out which level gets what.

Yeah, apart from a few no brainers (e.g foreign affairs being a federal issue) it would be difficult, but worth doing.

[bore]

Is Bore referring to the power of the purse as the nuclear option? Or are we literally considering nuking San Francisco if DemPGH doesn't listen to us?

Yeah, it would basically be removing all funding for everything because a region didn't, say, ban smoking in doors.

[bore]

If the amendment is declared friendly I'll object to it.

By giving the power to principals we make it far more likely that some nut orders a textbook that is in some way misleading or pushing an agenda or whatever. Ideally I'd leave the regional governments to draw up lists of all approved textbooks and then principals or education boards (it wouldn't really matter) would choose from them but education boards are closer to that than principals are.