In which region do Kansas, Nebraska, & the Dakotas fit?
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  Political Geography & Demographics (Moderators: muon2, 15 Down, 35 To Go)
  In which region do Kansas, Nebraska, & the Dakotas fit?
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Question: ?
#1
Midwest
 
#2
West
 
#3
Neither/both equally
 
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Total Voters: 67

Author Topic: In which region do Kansas, Nebraska, & the Dakotas fit?  (Read 2746 times)
TDAS04
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« on: April 12, 2014, 01:53:57 PM »

Well?
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2014, 02:30:36 PM »

Midwest.

The US is legally divided into several regions, at least for the purposes of the Census.  I keep seeing threads like this, so I'm not sure if nobody's seen it...

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TDAS04
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2014, 02:56:49 PM »

Midwest.

The US is legally divided into several regions, at least for the purposes of the Census.  I keep seeing threads like this, so I'm not sure if nobody's seen it...



Yes, I am aware of that.  That's the Census Bureau's opinion.  This is about what Atlas thinks.  There's a Texas thread on the off-topic board.  The Census places Texas in the South, but many say Texas is not completely Southern.  It's not as if once you cross the border from Texas into New Mexico that the regional landscape or culture instantly changes (though I suppose it's possible sometimes).

I don't completely agree with the Census.  I disagree with classifying Maryland & Delaware, but not Missouri, as Southern.

Anyway, I agree that the 4 states in the poll are mostly Midwestern overall.  However, there is obvious Western influence.  Where I live, both sides of the SD/MN border appear the same, but the western part of my state is more Wyomingish.
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2014, 03:32:46 PM »

What do you mean by "Western influence?"  You mean in terms of culture?
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traininthedistance
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2014, 03:42:53 PM »

Yes, I am aware of that.  That's the Census Bureau's opinion.  This is about what Atlas thinks.  There's a Texas thread on the off-topic board.  The Census places Texas in the South, but many say Texas is not completely Southern.  It's not as if once you cross the border from Texas into New Mexico that the regional landscape or culture instantly changes (though I suppose it's possible sometimes).

I don't completely agree with the Census.  I disagree with classifying Maryland & Delaware, but not Missouri, as Southern.

Anyway, I agree that the 4 states in the poll are mostly Midwestern overall.  However, there is obvious Western influence.  Where I live, both sides of the SD/MN border appear the same, but the western part of my state is more Wyomingish.

I agree that MD, DE, and MO don't really belong where they are anymore- but they did when the Census first came up with this grouping, and you kind of have to keep it from census to census for statistical continuity.  But, yes, Maryland and Delaware have been getting steadily more Northeastern, and Missouri more Southern.

All the other states are clearly in the right region.  Yes, along the Great Plains you have a nice long edge case where the western bits are more Western and the Eastern bits more Midwest/Southern... but seeing as the eastern bits are more populous, if those states can only go in one basket the Census has put them in the right one.
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TDAS04
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2014, 03:53:18 PM »

What do you mean by "Western influence?"  You mean in terms of culture?

Yes, and to a lesser extent, topography.

Hope this helps a little. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_River_(South_Dakota)

It's about South Dakota, but some of it can apply to the other states as well (though not to the same extent, since North Dakota is historically more firmly linked to Minnesota.  ND's policies are traditionally more communitarian, with its state bank).

West SD is very individualistic ranch country.  MN, ND, to an extent East SD are more communitarian, in large part due to the Scandinavian, German, and some New England influence that's shaped the Upper Midwest culture.

West of the Missouri River in SD, it's traditionally mining country, and it's much more economically and culturally linked to Denver than to Minneapolis (lots of Denver Bronco fans in Rapid City; not so much in Sioux Falls).  Politics in West River are more conservative than here in the East, but also more libertarian (West River rejected an abortion ban on the ballot even more strongly than East River).

Anyway, even the landscape West River is more rugged and dry than here in the cornbelt.

Kansas & Nebraska also have some of the Western cowboy heritage, even if they're also mostly Midwestern.
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muon2
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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2014, 05:28:22 PM »

I see those all as Great Plains states (West North Central to the Census). Ranching and crop farming are both seen throughout the area, it's just that as the rainfall drops ranches get bigger and crops need irrigation. Both are agricultural and that forms the basis of the states. The West is anchored in a tradition of mining so the Black Hills are an outlier of the West and are being joined by the oil fields of western ND. But by the same measure eastern CO is an extension of the Great Plains. State boundaries don't follow these cultural lines, so I go with the majority of the population.

The Census map is based on division from a century ago and were designed for statistical tabulation. By the 1950's they recognized that the divisions were outdated, and wanted to make changes like shifting MD, DE and DC. However, data users didn't want to break the chain of statistical data, so no shifts have been made.

To train's comment, MO is becoming less southern as areas like Little Dixie are losing their southern character in favor of a typical rural Midwest. The St Louis and KC metros make up over half the population and they aren't Southern cities. The only really Southern areas are in the Ozarks and Bootheel. The political shifts are more like KS than like the South.
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2014, 08:28:22 PM »

Kansas & Nebraska also have some of the Western cowboy heritage, even if they're also mostly Midwestern.

Everyone west of the Mississippi River is a cowboy. Except the coastal places of CA/OR/WA.
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jimrtex
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« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2014, 12:11:44 AM »

Since Illinois is an eastern state, it makes sense to include the next two tiers as Midwest.
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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2014, 03:56:06 PM »

I should probably point out that the motto of Mandan, ND (basically a suburb of Bismarck across the river from it) is "Where the West begins". If you draw the border there between Midwest and West it actually does make a lot of sense.
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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2014, 07:09:46 PM »

I think the Census Bureau should just create new "great plains" region, because Kansas, Nebraska and the Dakotas are neither completely midwestern or completely western. The row of states stretching from Oklahoma to N. Dakota is really all its own, although Oklahoma's placement in the region is iffy.

The region has settlement patterns similar to the midwest, especially in the cities. But in terms of topography, geography, politics, climate and culture, it's pretty different. But it's also not like the west either, which in my opinion starts west of the Rockies.
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muon2
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« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2014, 09:19:21 PM »

Another way to look at the region is by the type of agriculture. Soybeans are perhaps the most ubiquitous crop of the Midwest as they are the key in most crop rotations. They are a common feature from OH across to ND and down to KS, and only otherwise appear in abundance along the lower Mississippi.

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Randy Bobandy
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« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2014, 07:59:06 AM »

Probably both, depending on who you ask.
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traininthedistance
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« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2014, 11:37:38 AM »

To train's comment, MO is becoming less southern as areas like Little Dixie are losing their southern character in favor of a typical rural Midwest. The St Louis and KC metros make up over half the population and they aren't Southern cities. The only really Southern areas are in the Ozarks and Bootheel. The political shifts are more like KS than like the South.

Thanks for the correction.  I was thinking about things like the religion map (where Missouri is strongly Baptist, like the South), the recent addition of Mizzou to the SEC (and commentators saying that that signified Missouri's increasing allegiance to the South rather than the Midwest), as well as a vague sense that the Ozarks were growing while the KC and STL metros weren't.  But obviously that is all from a distance and I'm glad to be corrected.
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muon2
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« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2014, 01:44:03 PM »

To train's comment, MO is becoming less southern as areas like Little Dixie are losing their southern character in favor of a typical rural Midwest. The St Louis and KC metros make up over half the population and they aren't Southern cities. The only really Southern areas are in the Ozarks and Bootheel. The political shifts are more like KS than like the South.

Thanks for the correction.  I was thinking about things like the religion map (where Missouri is strongly Baptist, like the South), the recent addition of Mizzou to the SEC (and commentators saying that that signified Missouri's increasing allegiance to the South rather than the Midwest), as well as a vague sense that the Ozarks were growing while the KC and STL metros weren't.  But obviously that is all from a distance and I'm glad to be corrected.

The Mizzou to the SEC was in large part due to their rejection by the Big 10 who felt that their academics were not a good match to the rest of the conference.
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jimrtex
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« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2014, 07:42:45 AM »

To train's comment, MO is becoming less southern as areas like Little Dixie are losing their southern character in favor of a typical rural Midwest. The St Louis and KC metros make up over half the population and they aren't Southern cities. The only really Southern areas are in the Ozarks and Bootheel. The political shifts are more like KS than like the South.

Thanks for the correction.  I was thinking about things like the religion map (where Missouri is strongly Baptist, like the South), the recent addition of Mizzou to the SEC (and commentators saying that that signified Missouri's increasing allegiance to the South rather than the Midwest), as well as a vague sense that the Ozarks were growing while the KC and STL metros weren't.  But obviously that is all from a distance and I'm glad to be corrected.

The Mizzou to the SEC was in large part due to their rejection by the Big 10 who felt that their academics were not a good match to the rest of the conference.
Unlike those for Nebraska?
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Oldiesfreak1854
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2014, 07:57:43 AM »

Midwest, but I would label them as Lower Midwest.
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muon2
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2014, 10:20:11 AM »

To train's comment, MO is becoming less southern as areas like Little Dixie are losing their southern character in favor of a typical rural Midwest. The St Louis and KC metros make up over half the population and they aren't Southern cities. The only really Southern areas are in the Ozarks and Bootheel. The political shifts are more like KS than like the South.

Thanks for the correction.  I was thinking about things like the religion map (where Missouri is strongly Baptist, like the South), the recent addition of Mizzou to the SEC (and commentators saying that that signified Missouri's increasing allegiance to the South rather than the Midwest), as well as a vague sense that the Ozarks were growing while the KC and STL metros weren't.  But obviously that is all from a distance and I'm glad to be corrected.

The Mizzou to the SEC was in large part due to their rejection by the Big 10 who felt that their academics were not a good match to the rest of the conference.
Unlike those for Nebraska?


Both Nebraska and Mizzou were considered at about the same time and the academics were found to be different enough for the Big 10 to go with one and not the other according to media reports. There may have been other political factors, but they didn't come out at that time in 2010. It certainly wasn't for TV market or Mizzou would have been preferred.
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« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2014, 10:47:19 AM »

Midwest, but I would label them as Lower Midwest.

? ...the Dakotas aren't 'lower' anything.
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jimrtex
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« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2014, 01:52:24 AM »


The Mizzou to the SEC was in large part due to their rejection by the Big 10 who felt that their academics were not a good match to the rest of the conference.
Unlike those for Nebraska?


Both Nebraska and Mizzou were considered at about the same time and the academics were found to be different enough for the Big 10 to go with one and not the other according to media reports. There may have been other political factors, but they didn't come out at that time in 2010. It certainly wasn't for TV market or Mizzou would have been preferred.
Nebraska was subsequently removed from the AAU.

Leavenworth is close enough to be considered a suburb of Kansas City, and Illinois would fear losing their St.Louis market.   Columbia is a small town in the middle of the state.

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Tieteobserver
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« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2014, 07:34:47 PM »

When it comes to dividing America into regions, I follow the official US Census, except that I merge the Midwest and the Northeast into a larger region called, guess what, North, and I tend to include both DE and MD on it.
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« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2014, 08:47:01 AM »

Of relevance: http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/what-states-are-in-the-midwest/
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muon2
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« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2014, 09:19:56 AM »


A very timely link. Smiley  Thanks.

It is interesting to see the Midwesterners in the poll dis the Dakotas so much. Perhaps spending much of my youth in MN puts the Dakotas closer to the Midwest than other residents see them.

It's also likely that many self-identified Midwesterners in the poll react to their primary image of the state. For many in Chicago and points east their view that's likely to be Mt Rushmore and the Black Hills when they think of the Dakotas. It's a small part of the two states, but if that's their main impression I could see them moving those states to the West.
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Skill and Chance
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« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2014, 12:22:04 PM »

I would draw the present-day South/West line along I-35.  Each of the major cities along I-35 was once clearly Southern but is now ambiguous in a Northern Virginia kind of way.  However, go an hour east of I-35 and it clearly feels like the South.
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TDAS04
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« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2014, 03:39:08 PM »


Funny that the three most Midwestern states according to that are all next to each other alphabetically.

This is what I consider the Midwest:



Dark Green:  Solidly Midwestern
Medium Green:  Mostly Midwestern
Light Green:  Not Midwestern, but with some Midwestern influence
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