The Armenian Genocide

[Indy Texas]

It's also worth pointing out that had the Armenian Genocide not occurred, America might not today be faced with the descendants of certain Armenian immigrants...

[Vosem]

It is shameful that we have not done so as yet.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

It is shameful that we have not done so as yet.

[SPC]

I don't see the purpose of doing so. Will having the government make a resolution about it somehow bring the 1 million lost souls back to life? Obviously the Armenians have the facts on their side, why do they even need official recognition from a third-party government?

[7,052,770]

Obviously the Armenian Genocide occurred, but we have no legitimacy to insist that Turkey admit it when we won't acknowledge our own...

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Obviously the Armenian Genocide occurred, but we have no legitimacy to insist that Turkey admit it when we won't acknowledge our own...

IIRC we apologized for that, though I don't think we acknowledged it as a genocide. However, I don't see how that means that we can't insist Turkey acknowledge theirs. If I stab a guy and I then go off on you for stabbing another guy, I'm correct even though I'm a hypocrite.

[SPC]

Obviously the Armenian Genocide occurred, but we have no legitimacy to insist that Turkey admit it when we won't acknowledge our own...

IIRC we apologized for that, though I don't think we acknowledged it as a genocide. However, I don't see how that means that we can't insist Turkey acknowledge theirs. If I stab a guy and I then go off on you for stabbing another guy, I'm correct even though I'm a hypocrite.

And what good does that do when all of the original perpetrators are dead? The only effect I could see it having is improving the electoral fortunes of those who would perform similar deeds if given the opportunity.

[H. Ross Peron]

Maybe its just having been a member from AH. Com, but isn't there a fairly extensive debate over whether the massacres of Armenians meet the technical definition of genocide (even if obviously mass murders did take place)?

[ingemann]

I don't see the purpose of doing so. Will having the government make a resolution about it somehow bring the 1 million lost souls back to life? Obviously the Armenians have the facts on their side, why do they even need official recognition from a third-party government?

For two reasons:
1: For the same reason that the Jews do for their genocide.
2: To pressure Turkey to recognise the genocide rather than active push their denial around the world and imprison people who recognise it.

[ingemann]

Maybe its just having been a member from AH. Com, but isn't there a fairly extensive debate over whether the massacres of Armenians meet the technical definition of genocide (even if obviously mass murders did take place)?

The hostility toward the Armenian genocide on AH.com build on one (pro-Turkish) banned poster and his clique, outside AH.com the denial of the Armenian genocide are at best a fringe position, and even on AH.com the denial build more on weaseling the term genocide. The Armenian Genocide are well documented, through mostly among the former Central Powers and neutral states, who had missionaries, traders and observers in the area.

[Sol]

Maybe its just having been a member from AH. Com, but isn't there a fairly extensive debate over whether the massacres of Armenians meet the technical definition of genocide (even if obviously mass murders did take place)?

The hostility toward the Armenian genocide on AH.com build on one (pro-Turkish) banned poster and his clique, outside AH.com the denial of the Armenian genocide are at best a fringe position, and even on AH.com the denial build more on weaseling the term genocide. The Armenian Genocide are well documented, through mostly among the former Central Powers and neutral states, who had missionaries, traders and observers in the area.

Exactly. Not to mention that not meeting the technical definition of Genocide doesn't mean that it wasn't a horrible crime- see the Congo Free State.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

What SPC said. I don't really care about our recognition of it. It obviously happened.

[SPC]

I don't see the purpose of doing so. Will having the government make a resolution about it somehow bring the 1 million lost souls back to life? Obviously the Armenians have the facts on their side, why do they even need official recognition from a third-party government?

For two reasons:
1: For the same reason that the Jews do for their genocide.

As an ad hominem to use against those who oppose current policies toward Israel?

[/quote]2: To pressure Turkey to recognise the genocide rather than active push their denial around the world and imprison people who recognise it.
[/quote]

Again, the more likely effect would be to encourage anti-American and nationalist sentiment in Turkey. Of course, a separate discussion could be held regarding the merits of our alliance with Turkey, but I cannot see an event that occured 100 years ago under a previous regime being a rational reason to sever that alliance.

[ingemann]

I don't see the purpose of doing so. Will having the government make a resolution about it somehow bring the 1 million lost souls back to life? Obviously the Armenians have the facts on their side, why do they even need official recognition from a third-party government?

For two reasons:
1: For the same reason that the Jews do for their genocide.

As an ad hominem to use against those who oppose current policies toward Israel?

That's one of the thing it can be used to, it can also be used when the Turkish government set up denial exhibits in America (we have seen that in other Western countries).

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Again, the more likely effect would be to encourage anti-American and nationalist sentiment in Turkey. Of course, a separate discussion could be held regarding the merits of our alliance with Turkey, but I cannot see an event that occured 100 years ago under a previous regime being a rational reason to sever that alliance.[/quote]

I argue why it's good idea for the Armenians to push this, not why it's good reason for USA push it.

But if we have to look at that perspective (from the American government side), this is more or less the perfect moment to recognise the genocide. Turkish foreign policy have been rather anti-American for years now, and the Turkish government have sought closer ties to American enemies (like Iran and  before the civil war; Syria), at the same time Erdogan's incompetence and erratic foreign policy have succeed in isolating Turkey more ever. Now would be a good time to snub the Turks, and teach them if they continue the course they have chosen, USA will no longer care about their interests.

[Indy Texas]

I don't see the purpose of doing so. Will having the government make a resolution about it somehow bring the 1 million lost souls back to life? Obviously the Armenians have the facts on their side, why do they even need official recognition from a third-party government?

For two reasons:
1: For the same reason that the Jews do for their genocide.

As an ad hominem to use against those who oppose current policies toward Israel?

That's one of the thing it can be used to, it can also be used when the Turkish government set up denial exhibits in America (we have seen that in other Western countries).

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Again, the more likely effect would be to encourage anti-American and nationalist sentiment in Turkey. Of course, a separate discussion could be held regarding the merits of our alliance with Turkey, but I cannot see an event that occured 100 years ago under a previous regime being a rational reason to sever that alliance.

I argue why it's good idea for the Armenians to push this, not why it's good reason for USA push it.

But if we have to look at that perspective (from the American government side), this is more or less the perfect moment to recognise the genocide. Turkish foreign policy have been rather anti-American for years now, and the Turkish government have sought closer ties to American enemies (like Iran and  before the civil war; Syria), at the same time Erdogan's incompetence and erratic foreign policy have succeed in isolating Turkey more ever. Now would be a good time to snub the Turks, and teach them if they continue the course they have chosen, USA will no longer care about their interests.

[/quote]

Armenia has always pushed for recognition of their genocide. Our justification for refusing to recognize it has always been fear of alienating Turkey. That may have been a good enough reason during the Cold War when Turkey was in NATO, but it makes no sense now. Turkey brings us nothing to the table. Erdogan is crazy and fancies himself some kind of modern-day fusion of Ataturk and the Ottoman sultans.

[Vosem]

Maybe its just having been a member from AH. Com, but isn't there a fairly extensive debate over whether the massacres of Armenians meet the technical definition of genocide (even if obviously mass murders did take place)?

You do know AHP was banned? Like, a while ago?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Until Turkey's strategic position on the map changes, we won't recognize it. 

[politicus]

My views havent changed since last time: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=121239.0

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

My views havent changed since last time: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=121239.0

Perhaps the better question is, will the U.S. ever officially recognize it?

[Cory]

It is shameful that we have not done so as yet.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Moral reasons aside for a moment, refusing to acknowledge an obvious historical fact is pretty stupid.

[SPC]

Moral reasons aside for a moment, refusing to acknowledge an obvious historical fact is pretty stupid.

Does Congress have to issue an official statement addressing all historical facts? When can we expect a resolution acknowledging the Czarist ethnic cleansing of Circassians or the supression of the Indian rebellion?

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Moral reasons aside for a moment, refusing to acknowledge an obvious historical fact is pretty stupid.

Does Congress have to issue an official statement addressing all historical facts? When can we expect a resolution acknowledging the Czarist ethnic cleansing of Circassians or the supression of the Indian rebellion?

Considering the U.S. government had been, for political reasons, pretending for years the slaughter of 1.5 million people because of their nationality was something else than "genocide", I'd say yes, that would be nice.

[SPC]

Moral reasons aside for a moment, refusing to acknowledge an obvious historical fact is pretty stupid.

Does Congress have to issue an official statement addressing all historical facts? When can we expect a resolution acknowledging the Czarist ethnic cleansing of Circassians or the supression of the Indian rebellion?

Considering the U.S. government had been, for political reasons, pretending for years the slaughter of 1.5 million people because of their nationality was something else than "genocide", I'd say yes, that would be nice.

Could you provide a source for the U.S. government actively engaging in genocide denial, as opposed to merely not discouraging it by their ally?

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Moral reasons aside for a moment, refusing to acknowledge an obvious historical fact is pretty stupid.

Does Congress have to issue an official statement addressing all historical facts? When can we expect a resolution acknowledging the Czarist ethnic cleansing of Circassians or the supression of the Indian rebellion?

Considering the U.S. government had been, for political reasons, pretending for years the slaughter of 1.5 million people because of their nationality was something else than "genocide", I'd say yes, that would be nice.

Could you provide a source for the U.S. government actively engaging in genocide denial, as opposed to merely not discouraging it by their ally?

I'm sure Andrew Jackson didn't consider himself genocidal.