Pope Francis Declares John Paul II and John XXIII Saints

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

NBC News

[Antonio the Sixth]

Italian TV has only been talking about that since yesterday.

Actually, I'm quite happy about John XXIII. The huge media frenzy has always been about JP2 of course, but the political significance of canonizing John XXIII is very powerful. He has been a transformative figure for the Church and it's pretty clear he's one of Francis' major sources of inspiration.

[DC Al Fine]

That was some fast track for JP2. He hasn't even been dead 10 years. Otherwise, I wholeheartedly approve.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

What makes this significant is that other than these two, the most recent Pope to become a saint was Pius V, who served in the 16th century.

[Cassius]

I demand that Pius XII be made a saint! Good choice with John Paul II though.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I demand that Pius XII be made a saint!

[Cassius]

I demand that Pius XII be made a saint!

Ok fine... Leo XII and Gregory XVI will do

[TJ in Oregon]

What makes this significant is that other than these two, the most recent Pope to become a saint was Pius V, who served in the 16th century.

No, Pope Pius X was also canonized in 1954. But before today he was the only one in a very long time.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Actually, I'm quite happy about John XXIII. The huge media frenzy has always been about JP2 of course, but the political significance of canonizing John XXIII is very powerful. He has been a transformative figure for the Church and it's pretty clear he's one of Francis' major sources of inspiration.

Yeah. John Paul II was fast-tracked because he was so popular but for John XXIII Francis actually waived the second miracle requirement and declared him a saint by his merits of having opened the Second Vatican Council, which I think says quite a bit about the esteem in which he holds him. The esteem is I think entirely deserved--John XXIII was both a great pope and a wonderful human being.

I demand that Pius XII be made a saint!

Ok fine... Leo XII and Gregory XVI will do

Gregory XVI is...not actually an entirely terrible choice (whereas Leo XII can be reasonably argued to have, basically, ruined the Papal States for everybody, including his successors), so I'd accept him if you threw in Leo XIII to sweeten the deal.

Fun fact: Leo XII's episcopal consecration was from, of all people, Henry Cardinal Stuart, the 'Cardinal-Duke of York', Bonnie Prince Charlie's younger brother and successor as Jacobite pretender as well as a prelate and eventually Dean of the College of Cardinals.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I demand that Pius XII be made a saint!

Please, please, please tell me you don't actually buy that "Hitler's Pope" nonsense.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I demand that Pius XII be made a saint!

Please, please, please tell me you don't actually buy that "Hitler's Pope" nonsense.

I'm not really familiar with "that Hitler's Pope nonsense" tbh, but what is certain is that Pius XII's attitude to the events of its time and to the absolute evil they represented was waaaay too ambiguous or wishy-washy to be considered *saintly*. It seems obvious that the standards should be pretty high if you want to canonize someone.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

That was some fast track for JP2. He hasn't even been dead 10 years. Otherwise, I wholeheartedly approve.

I do too.  I think it was close to a given near the end of his life that this would happen sooner rather than later.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I demand that Pius XII be made a saint!

Please, please, please tell me you don't actually buy that "Hitler's Pope" nonsense.

I'm not really familiar with "that Hitler's Pope nonsense" tbh, but what is certain is that Pius XII's attitude to the events of its time and to the absolute evil they represented was waaaay too ambiguous or wishy-washy to be considered *saintly*. It seems obvious that the standards should be pretty high if you want to canonize someone.

The "Hitler's Pope nonsense" is basically a common criticism from liberals that Pius XII was basically a Nazi ally.

Of course that's not true. And yes, the Vatican did help shelter many Jews throughout the war. But Pius XII was at the very least, a fascist sympathizer, even if not a Nazi one.

That said though the standards for sainthood aren't really that high anymore and more than one Francoist has been canonized.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

It would be absolutely hilarious if Martin Luther was declared a saint. He's a Catholic you know.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

It would be absolutely hilarious if Martin Luther was declared a saint. He's a Catholic you know.

Please be quiet.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

John Paul II is one of the least deserving people to be canonized. Though, ironically, he himself seriously desreased the sainthood's value by canonizing people en masse, among them those who were, literally, fascists.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

John Paul II is one of the least deserving people to be canonized. Though, ironically, he himself seriously desreased the sainthood's value by canonizing people en masse, among them those who were, literally, fascists.

Like who? Besides, JPII is easily one of the most deserving, not least.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

John Paul II is one of the least deserving people to be canonized. Though, ironically, he himself seriously desreased the sainthood's value by canonizing people en masse, among them those who were, literally, fascists.

Like who? Besides, JPII is easily one of the most deserving, not least.

For what?

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

John Paul II is one of the least deserving people to be canonized. Though, ironically, he himself seriously desreased the sainthood's value by canonizing people en masse, among them those who were, literally, fascists.

Like who? Besides, JPII is easily one of the most deserving, not least.

For what?

Sainthood. Now, who are the fascist saints? All I could find about fascist saints were made by Benedict XVI.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

John Paul II is one of the least deserving people to be canonized. Though, ironically, he himself seriously desreased the sainthood's value by canonizing people en masse, among them those who were, literally, fascists.

Like who? Besides, JPII is easily one of the most deserving, not least.

For what?

Sainthood. Now, who are the fascist saints? All I could find about fascist saints were made by Benedict XVI.

In case you didn't know, look under "Francoist".

And I repeat, how did JPII deserve a sainthood?

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

John Paul II is one of the least deserving people to be canonized. Though, ironically, he himself seriously desreased the sainthood's value by canonizing people en masse, among them those who were, literally, fascists.

Like who? Besides, JPII is easily one of the most deserving, not least.

For what?

Sainthood. Now, who are the fascist saints? All I could find about fascist saints were made by Benedict XVI.

In case you didn't know, look under "Francoist".

And I repeat, how did JPII deserve a sainthood?

I can't say anything about JPII that you've already herd. I'd like to know why you hate him so much; I searched your posting history and I couldn't find anything other than making too many people saints.

[Franzl]

I can see why some might dislike some of the things he did, and I have some issues too....but overall I have to say I do have a rather strong admiration for Karol Woytla. And John XXIII too, of course.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I do not "dislike" him. I just have a lot of issues with John Paul II, among them:

- Covering up sexual abuses committed by the clergy and protecting those guilty. Yes, it's a very big deal.
- Despite keeping some appearances (as he was very good actor), JPII reversed in many ways a progress made under John XXIII, Paul VI and John Paul I, taking a reactionary course.
- He effectively sheltered the most xenophobic elements within his native Polish church, and just look at the Polish church now... and the Church is powerful here.
- His policy regarding AIDS crisis did a lot of harm, especially in Africa.

Even if we disregard these things, I have two, lets say, technical issues:

- He became a Saint too soon (as opposed to someone as deserving as John XXIII)
- Those "miracles" brought as a basis for his canonization are dubious at best (again, a rush)

Yes, I do respect JPII's role during the Cold War, but I think it is very unfortunate he continued to serve as the Pope after 1989.

John XXIII is the kind of a Pope I deeply admire, despite not being a Catholic. John Paul II is not my hero.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yeah, JP2 is certainly extremely overrated in public perceptions, even by non-Catholics. I'd say that, at the very least, his genuine friendship with this charming fellow should put him safely in HP territory. I wouldn't say he was a bad person all in all, but his worldview was certainly deeply flawed and the direction he led the Church toward was largely the wrong one.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Yeah, JP2 is certainly extremely overrated in public perceptions, even by non-Catholics. I'd say that, at the very least, his genuine friendship with this charming fellow should put him safely in HP territory. I wouldn't say he was a bad person all in all, but his worldview was certainly deeply flawed and the direction he led the Church toward was largely the wrong one.

Indeed. By all accounts JP2 was personally a good and decent man. But it is just a small bit of one's legacy.