Do you support Private or for-profit Prisons?
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  Do you support Private or for-profit Prisons?
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Author Topic: Do you support Private or for-profit Prisons?  (Read 4468 times)
Grumpier Than Uncle Joe
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« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2014, 09:38:09 AM »


... [Personal attack redacted by Torie]

What on God's green Earth gave you the idea that you can levy personal attacks on Boards for which I am responsible, and get away with it?  Your post was reported. Don't ever do it again please within my range of jurisdiction. I will give you PM notice of this comment. Thanks.

Torie.




Maybe Alfred can PM me his deleted post, I certainly don't mind.  I can understand Torie not wanting on the board, but Alfred, you're free to PM me.  Smiley
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TNF
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« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2014, 10:00:52 AM »


So what do you propose instead?  Executions?  Selling into servitude to repay the harm of their crimes? The lash?  The stock?  Crimes do require some form of punishment and prisons offer the chance for rehabilitation, even if that is too seldom offered by society these days and too seldom accepted when it is offered.

No s**t? Tongue

I don't buy your premise that prisons offer the chance for rehabilitation, given their sorry track record throughout American history. I would rather see the U.S. implement principles of restorative justice rather than continue down the path of imprisonment for imprisonment's sake. How would that work in question? Well, as per the above link, a prison abolitionist like myself would apply restorative justice largely in the following manner:

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I do think that eliminating the causes of crime is of the utmost importance, which ultimately means abolishing capitalist social relations (and in the meantime, minimizing them insofar as possible) in favor of a post-market, post-capitalist economy. Crime is not and never has been something that can be simply boiled down to individual actors: it is a social phenomenon resulting from the uneven distribution of the capitalist surplus and arises naturally from capitalist class society. Only when we have abolished all classes and each of us have full and free access to the surplus of our labor on the basis of need shall we eliminate crime.
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Flake
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« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2014, 10:09:53 AM »


... [Personal attack redacted by Torie]

What on God's green Earth gave you the idea that you can levy personal attacks on Boards for which I am responsible, and get away with it?  Your post was reported. Don't ever do it again please within my range of jurisdiction. I will give you PM notice of this comment. Thanks.

Torie.


What happened?

Answering the op: Hell no to private for-profit prisons.
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Cassius
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« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2014, 11:41:47 AM »
« Edited: April 29, 2014, 11:43:19 AM by Assemblyman Cassius »


So what do you propose instead?  Executions?  Selling into servitude to repay the harm of their crimes? The lash?  The stock?  Crimes do require some form of punishment and prisons offer the chance for rehabilitation, even if that is too seldom offered by society these days and too seldom accepted when it is offered.

No s**t? Tongue

I don't buy your premise that prisons offer the chance for rehabilitation, given their sorry track record throughout American history. I would rather see the U.S. implement principles of restorative justice rather than continue down the path of imprisonment for imprisonment's sake. How would that work in question? Well, as per the above link, a prison abolitionist like myself would apply restorative justice largely in the following manner:

Quote from: Restricted
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I do think that eliminating the causes of crime is of the utmost importance, which ultimately means abolishing capitalist social relations (and in the meantime, minimizing them insofar as possible) in favor of a post-market, post-capitalist economy. Crime is not and never has been something that can be simply boiled down to individual actors: it is a social phenomenon resulting from the uneven distribution of the capitalist surplus and arises naturally from capitalist class society. Only when we have abolished all classes and each of us have full and free access to the surplus of our labor on the basis of need shall we eliminate crime.

How can crime be eliminated? I suppose one could argue that, in a society without laws (which is one of the ultimate objectives of Marxist politics no?), 'crime' will not exist (because it will be impossible to break any laws). However, people will still murder, they will still rape, they will still attempt to deny people access to the 'surplus of their labour'. Man's proclivity to hurt other men, in my view, is something fixed; after all, people will still succomb to anger, greed, envy, lust and all of the more base emotions that exist inside all of us; this is shown by the fact that the wealthy, despite, in theory, having all that they could possibly want, still commit crimes like the aforementioned murder, rape and theft. I suppose one could say that our propensity to harm one another is indelibly imprinted upon humanity. I mean, in 'pre-capitalist' societies, did humans not harm one another (and if you like, this can be extended all the way back to when humans were nothing more than primitives sheltering in caves or under deerskins)?
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2014, 11:56:06 AM »


So what do you propose instead?  Executions?  Selling into servitude to repay the harm of their crimes? The lash?  The stock?  Crimes do require some form of punishment and prisons offer the chance for rehabilitation, even if that is too seldom offered by society these days and too seldom accepted when it is offered.

No s**t? Tongue

I don't buy your premise that prisons offer the chance for rehabilitation, given their sorry track record throughout American history. I would rather see the U.S. implement principles of restorative justice rather than continue down the path of imprisonment for imprisonment's sake. How would that work in question? Well, as per the above link, a prison abolitionist like myself would apply restorative justice largely in the following manner:

Quote from: Restricted
You must be logged in to read this quote.

I do think that eliminating the causes of crime is of the utmost importance, which ultimately means abolishing capitalist social relations (and in the meantime, minimizing them insofar as possible) in favor of a post-market, post-capitalist economy. Crime is not and never has been something that can be simply boiled down to individual actors: it is a social phenomenon resulting from the uneven distribution of the capitalist surplus and arises naturally from capitalist class society. Only when we have abolished all classes and each of us have full and free access to the surplus of our labor on the basis of need shall we eliminate crime.

I agree that our prisons at present often fail to implement the rehabilitative programs that could be undertaken there, and that even when they do implement such programs they often fail to do so in the most effective manner.  But that does not negate the fact that they can be done there.

As for your idea that all crime is economically motivated. Bwa-ha-ha-ha! That gave me the greatest laugh I've had in several days.  To be sure, there are some crimes that arise in part from economic circumstances.  But do tell me, what is the economic motivation behind rape, child molestation, or punching someone in the face because he likes the sports team that just humiliated yours?
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TNF
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« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2014, 12:01:58 PM »

I should have phrased my initial response better. The vast majority of crime can be eliminated by ending capitalist social relations, because the vast majority of crime stems from inequities inherent in that social system. A classless and stateless society, without law handed down from legislators or rulers of any sort is the penultimate goal of Marxism, yes. Murder that results from inequities in the system would disappear, of course, and without the profit motive dictating where research money goes, there is a strong possibility that we could cure the mental illnesses that make murder possible in the fist place. Does this mean murder would be eliminated or purged from society over night? No, and I assume that in the meantime those in our hypothetical society would find a way of dealing with it. I'm not in the business of predicting exactly what or how the socialist society of the future will handle such questions, because to do so would be to place my own views in place of what is democratically and freely determined by the producers themselves.

Rape would likely be dealt with the same way as noted above, though part of eliminating rape is eliminating the unequal societal division between men and women. Any socialist revolution worth it's salt will likewise be a feminist revolution and will seek to abolish the distinctions of gender oppression that serve, at this point, as an appendage of the capitalist system of exploitation and oppression. We differ on our view of mankind and its propensity to engage in socially harmful acts, and I don't think there's a chance either one of us will convince the other in that respect, but I understand where you're coming from, because I was raised with similar beliefs. I do not however believe that mankind is destined to always be at war with one another; what I believe is that removing the systems of exploitation which pit man against man will allow for the full and free development of humankind into what it should and what it can be.

To answer your question about pre-capitalist society: you're absolutely correct in asserting that conflict existed before capitalism, but said conflicts were still fundamentally resource/need based in every hitherto existing societal epoch. Only within the socialist epoch, when man's needs have been fulfilled fully and none is denied access to the fruit of our collective labor, can these conflicts be overcome and fully put to rest.
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TNF
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« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2014, 12:06:31 PM »

I agree that our prisons at present often fail to implement the rehabilitative programs that could be undertaken there, and that even when they do implement such programs they often fail to do so in the most effective manner.  But that does not negate the fact that they can be done there.

As for your idea that all crime is economically motivated. Bwa-ha-ha-ha! That gave me the greatest laugh I've had in several days.  To be sure, there are some crimes that arise in part from economic circumstances.  But do tell me, what is the economic motivation behind rape, child molestation, or punching someone in the face because he likes the sports team that just humiliated yours?

I welcome any and all changes to the prison system that make it more humane, but that does not also stop my advocacy of the eventual end to it and a new take on rehabilitation and restoration altogether.

Rape, child molestation, and punching someone in the face because he or she likes the sports team that just humiliated yours are not on the surface criminal acts resulting from economic issues, but they do come as a result of the sick, exploitative social relations of capitalism, which creates to a large extent mental illness, a whole host of perversions, and a perverted 'us against them' mentality that celebrates the individual over the collective, the personal over the societal, etc, etc.
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Cory
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« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2014, 12:10:10 PM »

No, it's a perversion of the very idea of justice system. And making it for profit is a very dangerous path.

This. Private prisons should be banned.
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windjammer
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« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2014, 12:13:57 PM »

I oppose prisons as well. I would be open to other alternatives. The prison system doesn't work at all.
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Meursault
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« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2014, 01:14:30 PM »

As I reject the concepts of 'punishment' and 'rehabilitation' as being either achieved in the present punitive regime or as being meaningful psychological concepts (both are loaded terms designed to justify existing practices), this is a false dichotomy. As for what should be done, why not exile, stripped of any pretense of redemptive purpose? The State already justifies itself through the penal discourse: it can surely justify an exilic discourse instead. But this requires a reversal of the Christian belief that purity of soul can be obtained through monastic confinement.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2014, 01:35:31 PM »

I oppose prisons as well. I would be open to other alternatives. The prison system doesn't work at all.

I am not sure either you or TNF understand what the prison system is used for. Or how TNF's nonsense would solve anything.
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TNF
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« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2014, 01:37:23 PM »

I oppose prisons as well. I would be open to other alternatives. The prison system doesn't work at all.

I am not sure either you or TNF understand what the prison system is used for. Or how TNF's nonsense would solve anything.

Nice argument bro.
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windjammer
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« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2014, 01:45:43 PM »

I oppose prisons as well. I would be open to other alternatives. The prison system doesn't work at all.

I am not sure either you or TNF understand what the prison system is used for. Or how TNF's nonsense would solve anything.
Gustaf, seriously, the prison system is a mess. No one can deny that. I see the law as someone that protects people, that's right. But I definitely believe every person should have the right to redeem itself. And prisons provide that. After leaving prison, people are destroyed mentally, that shouldn't be the goal of the sentence.
Seriously, I guess some alternatives are possible. (Although to be fair I'm not a specialist) that could definitely improve the system, that could definitely "cure" mental problems, that would not destroy people's life,...
Seriously, prison sucks extremely. And I consider life imprisonment without parole being much more horrible for the individual than death penalty. And I of course strongly oppose both death penalty and life imprisonment.
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Meursault
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« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2014, 02:11:49 PM »

Again: why not exile as a viable alternative to penalization? Do we genuinely believe that concentration into a single rigid social structure will 'purify evil'? Then we have advanced no further than medieval mendicants. Many of those currently incarcerated have natures predicated much more strongly towards nomadism anyway. So give them a free space in which to wander and borders beyond which they shall not pass.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2014, 02:21:03 PM »

As I reject the concepts of 'punishment' and 'rehabilitation' as being either achieved in the present punitive regime or as being meaningful psychological concepts (both are loaded terms designed to justify existing practices), this is a false dichotomy. As for what should be done, why not exile, stripped of any pretense of redemptive purpose? The State already justifies itself through the penal discourse: it can surely justify an exilic discourse instead. But this requires a reversal of the Christian belief that purity of soul can be obtained through monastic confinement.

Exile to where?  There no longer is a terra nullis we can sent criminals to and no rational country will want to accept criminals from another country.
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Goldwater
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« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2014, 06:08:46 PM »

No (R)
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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2014, 09:13:40 PM »

Absolutely not.
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TNF
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« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2014, 09:51:41 PM »

As I reject the concepts of 'punishment' and 'rehabilitation' as being either achieved in the present punitive regime or as being meaningful psychological concepts (both are loaded terms designed to justify existing practices), this is a false dichotomy. As for what should be done, why not exile, stripped of any pretense of redemptive purpose? The State already justifies itself through the penal discourse: it can surely justify an exilic discourse instead. But this requires a reversal of the Christian belief that purity of soul can be obtained through monastic confinement.

Exile to where?  There no longer is a terra nullis we can sent criminals to and no rational country will want to accept criminals from another country.

Space? Tongue
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Anti Democrat Democrat Club
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« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2014, 09:56:27 PM »

No (sane)
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Meursault
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« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2014, 09:59:56 PM »

Not space - not yet- but to the billions of acres of currently-fallow land held by governments the world over.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2014, 10:07:21 PM »

Not space - not yet- but to the billions of acres of currently-fallow land held by governments the world over.

So you'd destroy the environment to solve our crime problem?  The idea that fallow land serves no useful purpose is one I would hope we'd long since abandoned.
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Meursault
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« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2014, 10:12:53 PM »

Absolutely I would. And I'd hold that anyone willing to destroy the environment in the name of energy production has no ground to object to its destruction in the name of social amelioration. Better the Alaskan wilderness be homesteaded and improved by those who would otherwise waste away in captivity than be exploited by Exxon.
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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
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« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2014, 10:29:34 PM »

Absolutely I would. And I'd hold that anyone willing to destroy the environment in the name of energy production has no ground to object to its destruction in the name of social amelioration. Better the Alaskan wilderness be homesteaded and improved by those who would otherwise waste away in captivity than be exploited by Exxon.

You do realize no one has made that argument, right?
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Meursault
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« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2014, 10:34:57 PM »

In this thread? No. But it's an unspoken assumption in Ernest's counterargument to exile in particular, as a supporter of Keystone - that development of public land for energy production is fine, but using it to alleviate the conditions in the prisons is not.
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2014, 11:06:16 PM »
« Edited: May 02, 2014, 06:30:14 AM by ElectionsGuy »

No, way too many internal problems. I think we can all agree that criminal justice is not something that should be "privatized".
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