Amherst scores triumph over "male white privilege", bans fraternities

[Boris]

I attended the university which has (what I believe is) the largest Greek system in the country, around 20% of all undergrads. This effectively meaning that Greek and non-Greek life were heavily integrated (at least among US-born students) and everyone had Greek and non-Greek friends. So the frat hatred espoused by people in this thread has always been an alien concept to me (akin to how BRTD can't comprehend that people don't like 40 degree weather); maybe I just went to a school where people were too chill  

[Boris]

But, if you're constantly injecting race into every area of life, I actually think it's detrimental.  Personally, I just want to be treated as a human being, the same as everyone else.  Most people feel that way with regard to race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.  Instead,  I think the better message is about treating people fairly, good character and being a kind, gentle person.

I mean, it's easy for us as white men to say that race shouldn't constantly be injected into every day life. But for a black kid who is harassed by the police for something a white kid would not be, or who is rejected from a job or suffers other less visible, but still constant, forms of bias, or for a woman who can't walk down the street in a skirt because it's a nice day without being catcalled or can't have her tubes tied at the doctor when she's in twenties, even though there's no problem with her boyfriend doing the same, these things are constantly injected into their lives, against their will. We can't just ignore them and hope they go away. That's not how fighting inequality works.

Hopefully one day everyone is completely socially, politically and economically equal, regardless of skin color or gender or sexuality. But until that point, it's important to recognize that people are treated very differently based on these immutable characteristics, and simply ignoring this fact, which is admittedly very very uncomfortable, is not going to make it go away. We should instead recognize the ways that we don't treat marginalized the groups the same as everyone else, and work to correct those behaviors, both personally and in society at large.

Here's a fantastic chart that demonstrates white male privilege, all other factors being equal:

[bedstuy]

But, if you're constantly injecting race into every area of life, I actually think it's detrimental.  Personally, I just want to be treated as a human being, the same as everyone else.  Most people feel that way with regard to race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.  Instead,  I think the better message is about treating people fairly, good character and being a kind, gentle person.

I mean, it's easy for us as white men to say that race shouldn't constantly be injected into every day life. But for a black kid who is harassed by the police for something a white kid would not be, or who is rejected from a job or suffers other less visible, but still constant, forms of bias, or for a woman who can't walk down the street in a skirt because it's a nice day without being catcalled or can't have her tubes tied at the doctor when she's in twenties, even though there's no problem with her boyfriend doing the same, these things are constantly injected into their lives, against their will. We can't just ignore them and hope they go away. That's not fighting inequality works.

Hopefully one day everyone is completely socially, politically and economically equal, regardless of skin color or gender or sexuality. But until that point, it's important to recognize that people are treated very differently based on these immutable characteristics, and simply ignoring this fact, which is admittedly very very uncomfortable, is not going to make it go away. We should instead recognize the ways that we don't treat marginalized the groups the same as everyone else, and work to correct those behaviors, both personally and in society at large.

I don't know how to effectuate that myself.  I agree there are many racist and sexist people out there.  But, I can only control what I do.  Do you want me to give that woman a tubal ligation?

Ultimately, I think when you have a marginalized group, they aren't going to advance by the beneficence of the majority group anyway.  

[Simfan34]

The solution then, is to stop judging people on their differences and to treat everyone equally regardless of their skin color or otherwise. It would be a lot easier than this whole "privilege checking" phase people think is some necessary intermediate step (or end goal as it increasingly seems).

[Lief 🗽]

The solution then, is to stop judging people on their differences and to treat everyone equally regardless of their skin color or otherwise. It would be a lot easier than this whole "privilege checking" phase people think is some necessary intermediate step (or end goal as it increasingly seems).

"The solution to racism/sexism/homophobia is for everyone to stop being racist/sexist/homophobic." Great.

I don't know how to effectuate that myself.  I agree there are many racist and sexist people out there.  But, I can only control what I do.  Do you want me to give that woman a tubal ligation?

I don't know that there's anything you (or I) can do to effectuate change on a massive scale. The point of all this stuff is just to be aware of racist/sexist/whatever attitudes that exist in society and in ourselves, and do our best to not act on them and hopefully not pass them on to our kids, I guess. And part of that is treating every equally and with compassion, but I don't think you actually can treat everyone equally and compassionately if you're not aware of ingrained biases. The doctor in that link I posted, for example, probably doesn't even realize he's treating the woman differently than he would a man. Maybe he would act differently if he did realize.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Simfan, you should read the book that you made a thread about...

[Kevin]

I just love how posters like Lief and BRTD(you both are just butt hurt because you never got a bid from one) are stereotyping the whole Greek system based on negative incidents.

Most of our Presidents have been Greeks, and so have most of the members of Congress as well as most of the country's governors. Not to mention that large numbers of CEO's, inventors, artists, writers,  academics, scientists and others have been all been Greeks.

To judge a whole system like that is unfortunate and completely neglects the fact that Greek life adds tremendously to campuses across the country.

I think Amherst's administration will suffer tremendously from this decision as their student life and overall reputation of as an institution will suffer in the long run.

Like mentioned in an earlier comment, I hope they enjoy the wrath they will feel from all those pissed off older more moneyed donors who have had generations of connections with the school.

[bedstuy]

I don't know how to effectuate that myself.  I agree there are many racist and sexist people out there.  But, I can only control what I do.  Do you want me to give that woman a tubal ligation?

I don't know that there's anything you (or I) can do to effectuate change on a massive scale. The point of all this stuff is just to be aware of racist/sexist/whatever attitudes that exist in society and in ourselves, and do our best to not act on them and hopefully not pass them on to our kids, I guess. And part of that is treating every equally and with compassion, but I don't think you actually can treat everyone equally and compassionately if you're not aware of ingrained biases. The doctor in that link I posted, for example, probably doesn't even realize he's treating the woman differently than he would a man. Maybe he would act differently if he did realize.

I don't know whether my position is all that practically different from yours.  I just can't fathom consciously treating men and women differently, or black and white people differently, even if it's a type of inter-personal affirmative action. 

Personally, if we're talking about my friends or family who are racial minorities, I find that idea to be intuitively wrong.  Am I supposed to constantly second-guess how I treat my Asian friend or my black cousin?  I don't want to think of my friends or family as representing a race or category, they're just people like anyone else.  To label them and try to correct for their race actually seems like it would put a wall between us.

[Simfan34]

The solution then, is to stop judging people on their differences and to treat everyone equally regardless of their skin color or otherwise. It would be a lot easier than this whole "privilege checking" phase people think is some necessary intermediate step (or end goal as it increasingly seems).

"The solution to racism/sexism/homophobia is for everyone to stop being racist/sexist/homophobic." Great.

Yes? If we educate people that race/sex/orientation are (for the most part, the former more so than the latter two) not valid grounds for social distinction, then we can stop people from making distinctions on those grounds, rather than trying to hammer them in and try to get people worked up about being cognizant of how much harm your... I mean sex and orientation are real, substantive differences. Race is a completely fabricated one. It's not helpful to keep on bringing them up as if they were equivalent. But the point still stands.

Simfan, you should read the book that you made a thread about...

The Douthat one? I will after exams. I'm not saying frats are the greatest thing under the sun, but what I am saying is that this sort of rhetoric they're using to crack down on them is inane.

[Simfan34]

Simfan, you should read the book that you made a thread about...

The Douthat one? I will after exams. I'm not saying frats are the greatest thing under the sun, but what I am saying is that this sort of rhetoric they're using to crack down on them is inane.

I think what Paying for the Party makes clear is that the problems that we most closely tie to fraternities are just as wrapped up in the entire undergraduate experience at most American colleges.

So then yes, fraternities themselves are not the problem.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

If you want to apply Douthat's social conservative critique to higher education without being overwhelmed by cognitive dissonance, you need to ditch fraternities. The Greek system is only attractive in so far as it provides social lubrication in the form of what you call "debauchery". The networking facilitated by fraternities is already omnipresent at elite liberal arts colleges and ivies, which have always had the status of being "old boys club" networks.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Simfan, you should read the book that you made a thread about...

The Douthat one? I will after exams. I'm not saying frats are the greatest thing under the sun, but what I am saying is that this sort of rhetoric they're using to crack down on them is inane.

I think what Paying for the Party makes clear is that the problems that we most closely tie to fraternities are just as wrapped up in the entire undergraduate experience at most American colleges.

One of the most prominent arguments found in Paying for the Party is that colleges are responsible for the existence of the entire Greek system. The dorm system, the structure of events all form a Greek-dominated system perpetuated by Greek-alum administrators that transforms otherwise staid state schools into dens of inequity.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Oh I agree, I just don't understand why Simfan is rushing to defend them.

[Simfan34]

Because I'm not. I'm just pointing out that this ludicrous episode is, well, ludicrous.

[Del Tachi]

Cathcon should calm down.

I'm the only one who has the right to be an authority on all things Greek, after all I sit on the IFC at an SEC school. 

Moving on to substantive material, Greek letter organizations are no worse than any other type of student organization and I think its unfair that the University be banning fraternities while allowing student political organizations, religious organizations, and even the football team or school band to stick around.

Hopefully the alumni will through a fit, and in my experience this is more than enough to get any University to change their mind on just about anything. 

[Cory]

Something tells me there is more then "a little" bitterness and resentment from people's college years seeping over into their policy-making input.

It's just so obvious.

[Kushahontas]

yeah, so let's ban frats (which would not get rid of them btw) and force them underground where they are no longer subject to school regulation (via IFCs, judicial affairs, etc.). Totally great. Banning frats is like banning prostitution tbh.

[The Free North]

Awful.


The arguments against fraternities are absurd and created by people who probably didn't get a bid or just blindly hate others because of perceived stereotypes.


Those active in greek life on average have higher GPA's, raise more money for charity, and contribute more to campus than some naive loser sitting in a dorm room moaning about 'privilege'

[The Free North]

Also frat boys are the type of people who think Dane Cook and Daniel Tosh are funny. And the latter is probably the biggest promoter of rape culture in America.

From your comments its clear that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Try talking to some actual greek members instead of getting all of your information from cheap stereotypical media outlets. Are there some ed up people in fraternities? Of course, but no more than the rest of the population and ultimately, the hatred they get from people like you is disturbing, especially from someone who supposedly adheres to an ideology based on 'tolerance'

[Boris]

yeah, so let's ban frats (which would not get rid of them btw) and force them underground where they are no longer subject to school regulation (via IFCs, judicial affairs, etc.). Totally great. Banning frats is like banning prostitution tbh.

This is quite correct.  Fraternities that eventually get banned from schools for bad behavior really never go away, they just grow into worse unofficial entities.

Seriously. You don't need a trio of letters and nationals to form a 'fraternity.' All you need is a large group of friends who live in a house and it's basically the same thing. Having fraternities simply makes things more organized and better facilitates meeting new people and making friends and connections, which is basically the point of undergrad.

[The Free North]

The solution then, is to stop judging people on their differences and to treat everyone equally regardless of their skin color or otherwise. It would be a lot easier than this whole "privilege checking" phase people think is some necessary intermediate step (or end goal as it increasingly seems).

Agree 100%.

By dividing people into groups of 'privilege' you create imagined barriers between them which serves the same end as segregation.


Having people 'identify' with things like race, gender, sex, etc divides people, it doesn't unite them. In order to create a society where people are only judged on their merits, not who they are on 'the outside', we need to get rid of this trash. Does that mean not acknowledging 'privilege' and some people understanding that they have a leg up in certain situations? Of course not, but its incredibly counterproductive to go parading on about who has what privilege and how bad it is to be a victim of whatever race/gender/sex.

We need to erase labels, not create more of them.  

[AggregateDemand]

In my experience, fraternities exist to further a long list of social ills. There are exceptions to every generalization, but by and large frats were interested in: drunken debauchery, academic cheating, questionable semi-consensual sexual practices, new hazing rituals, frat wars, frat brands/tattoos, and kissing enough ass to keep the frat funded and in good standing with the university.

If universities knew what frats were doing, they wouldn't sully their academic institution by recognizing frats or giving them houses on campus.

[Kevin]

In my experience, fraternities exist to further a long list of social ills. There are exceptions to every generalization, but by and large frats were interested in: drunken debauchery, academic cheating, questionable semi-consensual sexual practices, new hazing rituals, frat wars, frat brands/tattoos, and kissing enough ass to keep the frat funded and in good standing with the university.

If universities knew what frats were doing, they wouldn't sully their academic institution by recognizing frats or giving them houses on campus.

Again clearly you have no idea what you are talking about.

[bballrox4717]

As someone who's in a fraternity, this decision and this entire thread is full of bulls[inks]t.

Instead of just banning fraternities altogether, why don't they take steps to actually solve the problem of rape, hazing and binge drinking on campus rather than ban organizations that take part of them? Greeks aren't the only ones who take part of this. In all honesty, I went through more hazing to join my current acapella group than my fraternity. In my experience, non-brothers are more likely to binge drink because they don't get access to alcohol as often (though this is also an argument to lower the drinking age).

This is also ignoring the clear benefits of being in a fraternity. At my school, it's required of fraternities to hold study hours for brothers, and fraternities usually have access to class resources that help brothers exceed in their courses. Also, I'm not close with all of my brothers in fraternity, but I always know they will be there for me if I need help, and I'm always going to be there for them. Fraternities encourages a group mentality that is immensely helpful later on in people's careers.

I haven't even mentioned the impact that fraternities and sororities have in their college's communities. Our vice president recently informed us that we successfully completed over 2,000 hours of service as a whole in our fraternity. At my school, this is the norm for fraternities and sororities, not the exception.

Are there fraternities out there that are sketchy and deserve to be shut down because they encourage criminal behavior? Absolutely. But don't take out your personal anger because some frat bro made fun of you once, or because you didn't get a bid. And especially don't blame Greek life as a whole for problems on campus. There's a damn good reason why almost every single president has been a part of Greek life when they were in college.

Amherst is making a colossal mistake.

[Oakvale]

This was pretty bad social justice warrior policy since as we know frats are the gayest things on the planet. Are SJWs endorsing homophobia? Discuss.