Opinion of the Bharatiya Janata Party

[moderatevoter]

You mean this?

[Boris]

Yeah, that has to be it! Goddamn, is India a horrible place or what?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Well in the dedicated following thread you'll see people who are more familiar with Indian politics who obviously aren't thrilled with them...and here you have Xahar.

Also comparing a party to the Republicans is not going to make me more fond of them.

None of them think all BJP voters are filth or that the BJP is Golden Dawn. I know your capacity for logical thinking is very limited so I won't bother explaining that I don't expect you to be fond of the BJP but recognize that unless you think all GOP voters are total scum Nazis you probably shouldn't think that of the BJP either.

Well if we're going to use Republicans as the standard for that then it's not necessarily all but well over 90%.

Although I'd expect most Republicans wouldn't fond of the BJP because the BJP hates Christians (also one of the reasons why I'm not, hey guess I agree with Republicans on something.) Hell the BJP even supports BANNING converting to Christianity.

[Sbane]

The BJP does not hate Christians. Go ask any Christian who actually lives in India, as opposed to the Bushie types. Will you not stop spewing nonsense?

Do you realize that the parties of the heavily Christian northeastern states tend to support the BJP? They wouldn't do that if the BJP hated all Christians.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

While it might be more of a state level thing, the BJP has proposed and passed laws in some states to make it illegal to convert to Christianity (and other religions too granted but it's obvious who it's targeted at.)

And the BJP and its allies threw a fit over the possibility of Sonia Gandhi being PM, and clearly not just because she was from the other party.

Yeah, that has to be it! Goddamn, is India a horrible place or what?

Slumdog Millionaire is actually depressingly pretty accurate from what I've been told.

[Sbane]

While it might be more of a state level thing, the BJP has proposed and passed laws in some states to make it illegal to convert to Christianity (and other religions too granted but it's obvious who it's targeted at.)

And the BJP and its allies threw a fit over the possibility of Sonia Gandhi being PM, and clearly not just because she was from the other party.

Yeah, that has to be it! Goddamn, is India a horrible place or what?

Slumdog Millionaire is actually depressingly pretty accurate from what I've been told.

Is one of those states Orissa (Odisha) by any chance? I am telling you man, it is a tribal vote thing. They don't like it when anyone (but it's basically just christians doing it) comes in and tries to destroy their traditions. And usually it is done in a very insensitive way by bribing people with food and goodies and their gods and traditions are trashed.

And by tribals, I mean these people. Obviously there are differences among these groups as well. In the northeast, where the people look more like Burmese people, there are some states that are more Christian than the United States. No one minds or cares because that is what those people want. The local parties there tend to support the BJP at the national level because the BJP is more of a "states rights" (except for Kashmir of course) sort of party and those people like autonomy. Another example is the Darjeeling seat in the mountains of north bengal that voted for the BJP in 2009.

The other type of tribals are those who look "Indian" and have many similarities with "Indian" culture but aren't really integrated into the hindu orthodoxy. These groups for the most part are very resistant of outside influence and christian missionaries in particular. This is where there is a political effort to stop conversions because you can buy off this vote bank by promising that.

Also, to understand why Hindus are so opposed to conversions is to understand that Hindus do not convert people. That is why they feel it is unfair if others try to convert them. It can be difficult to understand from an American perspective but by asking people to convert you are asking them to change their main identity, which is problematic, as I am sure you can understand. It would really be akin to asking black people to stop being black. Race is the main form of identity in most of the United States and in India it is religion.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

And the BJP and its allies threw a fit over the possibility of Sonia Gandhi being PM, and clearly not just because she was from the other party.

But is that specifically because she's Christian or more because she's foreign-born and -raised? Because that isn't a reason with which I'd agree, but it's--to an extent--understandable and not just flagrantly bigoted.

[Sbane]

And the BJP and its allies threw a fit over the possibility of Sonia Gandhi being PM, and clearly not just because she was from the other party.

But is that specifically because she's Christian or more because she's foreign-born and -raised? Because that isn't a reason with which I'd agree, but it's--to an extent--understandable and not just flagrantly bigoted.

There are many good reasons to not want Sonia as PM, the main reason being she is completely not qualified for the position. What has she ever done which makes qualified?

That being said, a lot of the opposition against her is because she is foreign born and raised. I don't really think it is fair to oppose her solely for that reason because it is obvious she cares about India, although that's not a completely bigoted position. There are some within the congress party who raised these same concerns. I hope BRTD wasn't trying to say people are opposed to her because of her religion, because that would just be hilariously wrong.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Black people CAN'T stop being black though (I suppose there's Michael Jackson style skin bleaching but even that doesn't make them genetically not black.) The analogy here would actually be more akin to attacking some individual black person because they want to completely renounce and leave behind black culture and got involve in say my scene (yeah I know how BRTD-centric the example is and ridiculously narrow, but it fits as it's an almost exclusively white subculture) and have people say "no no you can't do that! It's wrong! It goes against your culture!" Except in this case it's the law. And here's a great example of how messed up and oppressive the law can be if set up this way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lina_Joy

I'm aware Hindus don't proselytize. But that's not really too important, going on those grounds to argue that thus conversion from Hinduism is also wrong is basically stating someone born into some identity is locked into that for life and there's nothing they can ever do to leave that, I should point out most of the earliest Christian converts in India were of the lowest castes...and hey what I said above actually sounds like the caste system itself, and that's simply such a massive affront to freedom I can't tolerate it under any circumstances or in any culture. Now I know some people might say something like "It's one thing if some individual person opts to convert out of their own entire free will and choice but that doesn't excuse the type of aggressive proselytization some of these missionaries do." That is a valid distinction to make. However the BJP for the most part does not.

[Sbane]

I'm aware Hindus don't proselytize. But that's not really too important, going on those grounds to argue that thus conversion from Hinduism is also wrong is basically stating someone born into some identity is locked into that for life and there's nothing they can ever do to leave that, I should point out most of the earliest Christian converts in India were of the lowest castes...and hey what I said above actually sounds like the caste system itself, and that's simply such a massive affront to freedom I can't tolerate it under any circumstances or in any culture. Now I know some people might say something like "It's one thing if some individual person opts to convert out of their own entire free will and choice but that doesn't excuse the type of aggressive proselytization some of these missionaries do." That is a valid distinction to make. However the BJP for the most part does not.

I would argue that the BJP does make that distinction. I see no evidence suggesting otherwise. Conversion is not banned in any state, but measures to stop aggressive prostelyzing.

And I knew you would say that black people can't stop being black but from another perspective couldn't you say that is the same thing for religion too? You were born into a Hindu family or a Muslim family. You can't change that either. And race is pretty much a social construct as well, like religion.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Hinduism_from_Islam

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Islam_from_Hinduism

[Sol]

Bumped in light of landslide success.

[RR1997]

I actually just came back from a trip to India a couple of week ago (I went to Andhra Pradesh), and while I was there I learned a lot about Indian politics. I remember seeing members of the Communist and BJP parties canvassing with the people of the city, and I also remember seeing election posters and signs. It was a really interesting experience.


Anyways, the BJP is a horrible party, like all Indian political parties.

[Repub242]

I'd vote for them if I lived in India.

[anvi]

Haven't visited the forum for a while, so just to respond to a few questions of me on this thread:

I know the bomb was first acquired for India by Indira Gandhi.  But the BJP supported it, led a parliamentary coalition on that very issue in the '90's, and saw their tests and deployment through. 

In principle, I don't want anyone to have nukes.  Least of all white people.  I've written a lot of posts on this forum about why I disagreed with the U.S. decision to drop nuclear bombs on Japan, just for reference.  I do understand the geopolitical pressures on counties to have them once other countries have built up stockpiles.  That doesn't make them good.

Just because other political parties don't represent good alternatives is no reason for anyone to like the BJP.  I'm quite familiar with the differences between the BJP, the VHP, the RSS and so on.  Still, their major political leaders of the BJP in the last two and a half decades have been at the very least associated with movements that incite religious violence, and sometimes worse than merely associated.  Few things, in my view, could be worse for India.

But they won in a sweep, so they're in power now.  All we can do is hope for the best for the time being. 

[Indy Texas]

And the BJP and its allies threw a fit over the possibility of Sonia Gandhi being PM, and clearly not just because she was from the other party.

But is that specifically because she's Christian or more because she's foreign-born and -raised? Because that isn't a reason with which I'd agree, but it's--to an extent--understandable and not just flagrantly bigoted.

If a conservative party in a European country objected to a politician from a rival liberal party being PM because they were foreign-born and not of the local ethnicity, people would be hollering RACISM, RACISM, RACISM.

As for BJP, while its leadership and core base seem like a nasty bunch, I get the impression that a lot of people voted for them more out of disgust with the Congress Party and a desire for change than out of agreement with some of their more controversial positions.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

And the BJP and its allies threw a fit over the possibility of Sonia Gandhi being PM, and clearly not just because she was from the other party.

But is that specifically because she's Christian or more because she's foreign-born and -raised? Because that isn't a reason with which I'd agree, but it's--to an extent--understandable and not just flagrantly bigoted.

If a conservative party in a European country objected to a politician from a rival liberal party being PM because they were foreign-born and not of the local ethnicity, people would be hollering RACISM, RACISM, RACISM.

I mean I think it's a little more understandable for Indians to be leery about having Europeans as their leaders...

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Well, yeah, obviously, although I must admit I don't understand quite what's made people so upset with the Congress over the past five years (I understand it in general terms).

[PiMp DaDdy FitzGerald]

This serves as a lesson on the perils of true leftism: the INC's fabian socialism degenerated into cronyism and corruption and due to their failings, the Hindu Supremacist BJP got power.