SENATE BILL: Public Ownership Act of 2014 (Failed)

[bore]

Aye

Maybe not every railroad, but most cities have only one station, and are built up all around that station, meaning there is one line in and out. I don't see how that can't be a monopoly

[TNF]

Aye

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Maybe not every railroad, but most cities have only one station, and are built up all around that station, meaning there is one line in and out. I don't see how that can't be a monopoly

That may apply to Britain but that is incorrect regarding the United States. Most of the localized freight traffic is handled by trucks and numerous shortlines that lease trackage from the bigger railroads. This allows for a competition between the bigger lines and ability to shift from one to the other simply by trucking it to the other terminal. Most every major metropolitan area has at least two Class 1 lines servicing the freight on a city to city, inter-regional and coast to coast basis. The only time this wasn't the case was for the twenty years that Conrail had a monopoly on New York City and New Jersey, but that is history by fifteen years and counting. CA is serviced by both BNSF and UP, the East by NS and CSX. Hell I got an X just two miles away from my house where CSX and NS trackage cross. The US railroads have long been based on competition and even as they have consolidated, that was maintained save for the Northeast where it was temporarily necessitated to have a monopoly and that was entirely because of a combination of gov't bureacrats refusing to allow the shuttering of profitless lines to nowhere and high operational costs, bottomline the gov't interference created the mess in the first place.

The private system works wonderfull for freight and where Gov't intervention has occured unnecessarily or to an excessive degree, it has led to severe problems and a near economic crisis. I cannot support the nationalization of frieght railroads under any circumstances.

[Goldwater]

NAY

[Lumine]

Nay.

[Adam Griffin]

Aye

[bore]

Maybe not every railroad, but most cities have only one station, and are built up all around that station, meaning there is one line in and out. I don't see how that can't be a monopoly

That may apply to Britain but that is incorrect regarding the United States. Most of the localized freight traffic is handled by trucks and numerous shortlines that lease trackage from the bigger railroads. This allows for a competition between the bigger lines and ability to shift from one to the other simply by trucking it to the other terminal. Most every major metropolitan area has at least two Class 1 lines servicing the freight on a city to city, inter-regional and coast to coast basis. The only time this wasn't the case was for the twenty years that Conrail had a monopoly on New York City and New Jersey, but that is history by fifteen years and counting. CA is serviced by both BNSF and UP, the East by NS and CSX. Hell I got an X just two miles away from my house where CSX and NS trackage cross. The US railroads have long been based on competition and even as they have consolidated, that was maintained save for the Northeast where it was temporarily necessitated to have a monopoly and that was entirely because of a combination of gov't bureacrats refusing to allow the shuttering of profitless lines to nowhere and high operational costs, bottomline the gov't interference created the mess in the first place.

The private system works wonderfull for freight and where Gov't intervention has occured unnecessarily or to an excessive degree, it has led to severe problems and a near economic crisis. I cannot support the nationalization of frieght railroads under any circumstances.

Well sure, that's why I specifically made clear in the amendment that not every railroad had to be nationalised. Almost exclusively, I have in mind passenger services when I talk of natural monopolies.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Passenger service already is nationalized or run with various forms of public corporations like Amtrak. There might be a few commuter services that are private working under contract, but that is it.


It doesn't say that, it just says "provided there is a public interest", which is extremely vague. Who decides what is and what is not a public interest. TNF thinks it is in the public interest to nationalize everything that makes money.

[President Tyrion]

Aye

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

abstain

[Cincinnatus]

Vote on the 61:29 by bore:

Aye (5): Tyrion, Griffin, TNF, bore, and Alfred
Nay (3): Lumine, Goldwater, Yankee
Abstain (1): shua

Didn't Vote (1): DC

The amendment has been adopted.

[Simfan34]

This is ridiculous.

[TNF]

This is ridiculous.

Not really. Most nations have some degree of nationalization, and I frankly am sick and tired of ours being behind the curve on making industry run in the public interest, rather than on the qualms of private sector parasites.

[Simfan34]

American Leyland, here we come.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

What is the definition of public interest in your view?

Companies exist to make a profit by a providing a good or a service to the people, whilst obeying all laws and regulations in place to protect the public. That very action serves the public interest and to the extent that it fails, is a regulatory problem (sometimes too much, sometimes too little, sometimes enough but just done stupidly and sometimes enforcement problems).

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Where are we on this?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I still don't think I've heard what problem this bill is supposed to solve.

[TNF]

I still don't think I've heard what problem this bill is supposed to solve.

Parasites controlling major industry.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I still don't think I've heard what problem this bill is supposed to solve.

Parasites controlling major industry.

I don't see how this bill would change that. 

No, I want to know about problems that actually make a difference in people's lives.

[TNF]

I still don't think I've heard what problem this bill is supposed to solve.

Parasites controlling major industry.

I don't see how this bill would change that. 

No, I want to know about problems that actually make a difference in people's lives.

Nationalizing electricity will mean we'll be able to expand service in under served areas and lower rates, for one.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I still don't think I've heard what problem this bill is supposed to solve.

Parasites controlling major industry.

I don't see how this bill would change that. 

No, I want to know about problems that actually make a difference in people's lives.

Nationalizing electricity will mean we'll be able to expand service in under served areas and lower rates, for one.

We already have the Smart Grid Electrical Distribution Act, and I don't think we can assume removing competition leads to lower rates even if the monopoly is government run.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The answer is not to surrender to gov't monolies but to organize non-profit alternatives to compete with the for profit actors and thus bring their behavior into line or maybe put them out of business.

[TNF]

The answer is not to surrender to gov't monolies but to organize non-profit alternatives to compete with the for profit actors and thus bring their behavior into line or maybe put them out of business.

A non-profit monopoly and a government monopoly can be one in the same, provided this is structured correctly.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The answer is not to surrender to gov't monolies but to organize non-profit alternatives to compete with the for profit actors and thus bring their behavior into line or maybe put them out of business.

A non-profit monopoly and a government monopoly can be one in the same, provided this is structured correctly.

But I have less as much hatred for bigger gov't as I do for big business and I find both to be in their preferred condition, as small and decentralized as possible, otherwise it is people that get smaller and smaller relative to institutions of power/wealth.

The key to getting the desired result is to increase competition and alter the market incentives to push them in the desired direction.

[President Tyrion]

It's difficult to just manufacture increased competition, though. I think we can all agree that it's very difficult for there not to be an oligopoly or a monopoly in many of these industries because of the high infrastructure costs associated with an entrance to the industry.

Unlike TNF, I don't oppose a market-based solution on principle, but I do oppose it based on the manifested outcome of such a system.

If there were a way to have a massively competitive market in these industries, I would support it. But there's not, so I can't support a market solution.