Do you support any form of eugenics?
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  Do you support any form of eugenics?
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Author Topic: Do you support any form of eugenics?  (Read 2703 times)
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2014, 06:08:44 PM »

I don't "hate the poor" (I cede self-loathing to Christians).

The hell does that even mean?
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Nathan
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« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2014, 06:09:57 PM »

I don't "hate the poor" (I cede self-loathing to Christians).

The hell does that even mean?

Einzige has very particular views about Christians, and reacts extremely poorly to being reminded that there's more than one kind of us.
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2014, 06:13:43 PM »

I don't "hate the poor" (I cede self-loathing to Christians).

The hell does that even mean?

Einzige has very particular views about Christians, and reacts extremely poorly to being reminded that there's more than one kind of us.

Oh, I know how he feels about Christians.  I just don't know where the "self-loathing" bit comes from, especially when it comes to the poor.
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Nathan
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« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2014, 06:18:07 PM »

I don't "hate the poor" (I cede self-loathing to Christians).

The hell does that even mean?

Einzige has very particular views about Christians, and reacts extremely poorly to being reminded that there's more than one kind of us.

Oh, I know how he feels about Christians.  I just don't know where the "self-loathing" bit comes from, especially when it comes to the poor.

Einzige's from (or claims to be from) the same general socioeconomic background as the people he wants to submit to negative eugenics programs (and has used this as a threadbare defense of incredibly elitist and downright hateful posts in the very recent past, even). I guess his big monolithic mental image of 'The Christian' has stereotypically Catholic self-flagellating tendencies. That's the way I interpreted it, anyway.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2014, 06:38:29 PM »

I thought Keith Joseph was dead?
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« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2014, 07:07:01 PM »

To be more specific: are there any Italian-style fascist groups who still champion the Fascist Left? I'm not looking for any Strasserites.
casa pound maybe. in reality more like a few spergs on web forums (of course)
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Cory
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« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2014, 12:14:03 AM »

I see that Antonio's already fielded this question about your views in general, so I'll answer it about this subject specifically. You'll find a kindred spirit (although Lucy Maud Montgomery is surely turning in her grave for my use of that phrase in this context!) on this very forum. Seek out a poster called Cory if you're interested. He doesn't hate poor people as much as you do, but he hates disabled people more, so it balances out.

No I don't. Stop lying about my record.

Supporting parent's rights to have genes leading to things like down syndrome be removed =/= "hating disabled people".
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Nathan
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« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2014, 01:40:50 AM »

No I don't. Stop lying about my record.

Seriously? Your 'record'? Get real, Cory.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2014, 03:13:57 AM »

In theory, I find the concept interesting and potentially something that future generations may have to consider.

In practice, I can't see a way for it to occur without either
a) creating some of the worst discriminatory and authoritarian atmospheres we've ever seen, or b) being wildly inefficient, from both a social and economic standpoint

The planet's got too many people on it. Some will make the argument that advances in technology will continue to allow us to accommodate more people (heh, I've heard arguments made that we can support 40 billion people right now, which I find ridiculous). It is true to an extent, but the rate of advancement coupled with the corrupted nature of suppressing true innovation throughout the world for as long as possible means that it's not true when it comes to relative sustainability.

Then there's the fact that we've created a completely different dynamic over the past century for human civilization. We've managed to create an environment in which people who are truly ignorant, physically inept or mentally compromised can now quite easily survive just as long or do just as well as anyone else. It's not inherently a bad thing, but coupling that with the fact that the ignorant tend to reproduce more leads to a two-pronged issue. If any form of eugenics did become the law of the land in this country or world, then I hope those who wind up being overseers of it will adopt the neutral morality of whatever cold, sterile personality it'd take to do such a thing and not base it on race, gender, class, geography or formal education.

There's only one legitimate reason why this issue would ever have to be considered or implemented, and there's only one by-product of such an event that eugenics would have a credible ability to rectify on a macro scale. Anything else and it's genocide.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2014, 07:13:03 AM »

No I don't. Stop lying about my record.

Seriously? Your 'record'? Get real, Cory.

It's a Bob Dole quote, I think.
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Nathan
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« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2014, 09:05:40 AM »

No I don't. Stop lying about my record.

Seriously? Your 'record'? Get real, Cory.

It's a Bob Dole quote, I think.

That's hilarious.
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« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2014, 10:29:42 AM »

I certainly don't support anything mandatory or targeted specifically at the poor, but a government program that paid people for getting hysterectomies/vasectomies would probably be positive cash flow in the long run. It would of course need to be available to everyone, not just the poor.
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2014, 10:42:01 AM »

I support making contraception and abortion freely available to all who want it. Not sure if that's considered eugenics.
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2014, 12:15:29 PM »

I see that Antonio's already fielded this question about your views in general, so I'll answer it about this subject specifically. You'll find a kindred spirit (although Lucy Maud Montgomery is surely turning in her grave for my use of that phrase in this context!) on this very forum. Seek out a poster called Cory if you're interested. He doesn't hate poor people as much as you do, but he hates disabled people more, so it balances out.
Supporting parent's rights to have genes leading to things like down syndrome be removed =/= "hating disabled people".

From what I recall, you said you think parents should be able to choose everything from skin color to brain development to sexual orientation - not just remove inferior genes.

You also said that AIDS patients should commit suicide.  You are hardly the symbol for "rights of the disabled."

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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2014, 12:38:35 PM »
« Edited: May 25, 2014, 12:42:22 PM by Emperor Scott »

In theory, I find the concept interesting and potentially something that future generations may have to consider.

In practice, I can't see a way for it to occur without either
a) creating some of the worst discriminatory and authoritarian atmospheres we've ever seen, or b) being wildly inefficient, from both a social and economic standpoint

The planet's got too many people on it. Some will make the argument that advances in technology will continue to allow us to accommodate more people (heh, I've heard arguments made that we can support 40 billion people right now, which I find ridiculous). It is true to an extent, but the rate of advancement coupled with the corrupted nature of suppressing true innovation throughout the world for as long as possible means that it's not true when it comes to relative sustainability.

Then there's the fact that we've created a completely different dynamic over the past century for human civilization. We've managed to create an environment in which people who are truly ignorant, physically inept or mentally compromised can now quite easily survive just as long or do just as well as anyone else. It's not inherently a bad thing, but coupling that with the fact that the ignorant tend to reproduce more leads to a two-pronged issue. If any form of eugenics did become the law of the land in this country or world, then I hope those who wind up being overseers of it will adopt the neutral morality of whatever cold, sterile personality it'd take to do such a thing and not base it on race, gender, class, geography or formal education.

There's only one legitimate reason why this issue would ever have to be considered or implemented, and there's only one by-product of such an event that eugenics would have a credible ability to rectify on a macro scale. Anything else and it's genocide.

Another problem I have is that the whole idea of eugenics stems from the idea that we should "perfect" the human race.  I mean, I'm obviously not against advancing technology to improve people's lives and I'm not even against using genetic engineering to achieve it, but I think, from a philosophical and, yes, a religious standpoint, that humans can only push their narrow and ultimately shallow ideas of "perfection" so far.

Humans were never meant to create fellow human beings without naturally reproducing.  I think that's God's business.  Others think that's nature's business.  Either way, the attitude that man should have the final say in the affairs of the natural order and not the other way around has never worked and never will work even though that's basically the mainstream opinion in many respects.  I don't see that view becoming any less prevalent as time goes on.  I just hope I'm long dead before that barrier is completely decimated.

There's also, of course, the inevitable fact that the first ones to benefit from eugenics will be the very wealthy.  You can try to equalize it all you want.  Money wins in the end.  And even if it is made available to everyone, the common "preference" for the perfect human will shift as fast as clothing trends.  Even if the desired effects are achieved, people are still going to be unsatisfied and the accepted definition of "perfect" will change year after year.  Right now, we're taught that high IQ and wealth are the only superior measurements of "success."  Once those are eliminated, what's next?  What other methods will we have of building social hierarchies for the sake of utter dominance?

After all, if everyone's perfect, well, no one is.
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« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2014, 12:56:32 PM »
« Edited: May 25, 2014, 01:06:10 PM by Redalgo »

I suppose this is an issue I tend to dance around and avoid most of the time. Though alright with genetic engineering and cybernetics being used to make our species "better" in the future, I am wary against any attempts to purge society of any of its people - especially those who are subjugated in minority groups.

I am unwilling to meddle in the decisions made by mothers prior to their third trimesters of pregnancy but would oppose state efforts to mandate the termination or sterilization of any types of people for genetic reasons. What I would be alright with is offering some kind of incentive scheme for people to get sterilized or sign some sort of agreement binding them to adopt children rather than bear their own.

If I were a totalitarian, however, application of eugenic strategies could be very attractive for targeting folks who have genetic predispositions towards certain patterns of moral sensibility. There is perhaps some measure of chance it could bring about an order under which - if combined with indoctrination - nearly everyone could be led to embrace egalitarian, humanist values. This would of course lead to the destruction of the regime, but for many generations may provide increased resistance against future attempts by authoritarian or otherwise reactionary factions to ascend into power.
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Cory
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« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2014, 05:43:20 PM »

No I don't. Stop lying about my record.

Seriously? Your 'record'? Get real, Cory.

Well, that's exactly what you're doing.
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Nathan
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« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2014, 05:48:17 PM »

No I don't. Stop lying about my record.

Seriously? Your 'record'? Get real, Cory.

Well, that's exactly what you're doing.

I'm actually not but even if it was acting as supercilious as you are is hardly the right way to get me to feel bad about it.
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2014, 06:45:50 PM »

No I don't. Stop lying about my record.

Seriously? Your 'record'? Get real, Cory.

Well, that's exactly what you're doing.

I'm actually not but even if it was acting as supercilious as you are is hardly the right way to get me to feel bad about it.

Point out where I said I "hate disabled people" then jackass. I don't care about getting you to "feel bad" I'm just pointing out that you're full of sh**t.

Am I the only one who do the responsible thing if I caught HIV/AIDS?

Kill yourself (and the person who gave it to you). It's what any decent person would do.

All that took was a quick Google search.  First result, no less.
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Cory
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« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2014, 07:00:11 PM »

Am I the only one who do the responsible thing if I caught HIV/AIDS?

Kill yourself (and the person who gave it to you). It's what any decent person would do.

All that took was a quick Google search.  First result, no less.

A.) That has nothing to do with "disabled people".

B.) I was drunk when I posted that and should have said I would just kill myself if I got HIV/AIDS.
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PiMp DaDdy FitzGerald
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« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2014, 07:53:25 PM »

I support the castration, chemical or otherwise, of repeat sex-offenders. Does that count?
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« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2014, 08:14:24 PM »

In theory, I find the concept interesting and potentially something that future generations may have to consider.

In practice, I can't see a way for it to occur without either
a) creating some of the worst discriminatory and authoritarian atmospheres we've ever seen, or b) being wildly inefficient, from both a social and economic standpoint

The planet's got too many people on it. Some will make the argument that advances in technology will continue to allow us to accommodate more people (heh, I've heard arguments made that we can support 40 billion people right now, which I find ridiculous). It is true to an extent, but the rate of advancement coupled with the corrupted nature of suppressing true innovation throughout the world for as long as possible means that it's not true when it comes to relative sustainability.

Then there's the fact that we've created a completely different dynamic over the past century for human civilization. We've managed to create an environment in which people who are truly ignorant, physically inept or mentally compromised can now quite easily survive just as long or do just as well as anyone else. It's not inherently a bad thing, but coupling that with the fact that the ignorant tend to reproduce more leads to a two-pronged issue. If any form of eugenics did become the law of the land in this country or world, then I hope those who wind up being overseers of it will adopt the neutral morality of whatever cold, sterile personality it'd take to do such a thing and not base it on race, gender, class, geography or formal education.

There's only one legitimate reason why this issue would ever have to be considered or implemented, and there's only one by-product of such an event that eugenics would have a credible ability to rectify on a macro scale. Anything else and it's genocide.

I'm not sure I follow. Are you saying you are afraid that if the ignorant reproduce they'll use eugenics against others?
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The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
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« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2014, 08:15:14 PM »

Am I the only one who do the responsible thing if I caught HIV/AIDS?

Kill yourself (and the person who gave it to you). It's what any decent person would do.

All that took was a quick Google search.  First result, no less.

A.) That has nothing to do with "disabled people".

Except it does.  AIDS obviously isn't quite the death sentence it was thirty years ago, but it's still a very life-threatening condition that impairs people's abilities in all kinds of ways and forces them to live by a crutch just to survive.  It is a disability.  Your post not only demonstrates a complete lack of empathy for those people, but a type of behavior which I would not expect better from a sociopath.

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Ah, so you wait until now to tell us this?
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« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2014, 10:50:13 PM »

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Not if you eliminate the class system.


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Badger
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« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2014, 02:37:40 PM »

Generally no, but I have second thoughts every day I have to moderate posts....Tongue
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