Jaruzelski dead at 90

[RogueBeaver]

After a long illness.

[RogueBeaver]

BBC obit.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Weird, I though he was long past 90.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

RIP, HP.

[RogueBeaver]

RIP, HP.

Same here.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

RIP, HP.

Obviously I wouldn't call him a Freedom Fighter, but at the end he's legacy is probably more positive than not.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

RIP, HP.

Obviously I wouldn't call him a Freedom Fighter, but at the end he's legacy is probably more positive than not.

What are the positive aspects of his legacy with which I might not be familiar?

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

RIP, HP.

Obviously I wouldn't call him a Freedom Fighter, but at the end he's legacy is probably more positive than not.

What are the positive aspects of his legacy with which I might not be familiar?

Leading the first transition from communist to democratic government in the Eastern Bloc. Of course you may say "but it was 1989 already", yet remember we still were in the very heart of the Soviet Bloc, surrounded by guys like Husak, Honecker and Ceausescu. Jaruzelski played a big part in this. In fact, there were talks between government and the opposition years before (even before Gorbi), something which would never happen in Romania or DDR. Last, but not least, he was successfully dealing with the hardliners during his entire tenure. It really could have been much worse with someone else in charge.

As of the Martial Law, I believe it's hard to determine whether it was a lesser or bigger evil, so I won't make a judgement there.

Jaruzelski's regime was really a very mild one when compared to the rest of the Soviet Bloc which ironically allowed Solidarity to grow (imagine dude like Ceausescu dealing with such an opposition, ugh...)

To be clear, he wasn't my hero, he was still a dictator, but I still think his overall legacy is more positive, not only for Poland.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

RIP, HP.

Obviously I wouldn't call him a Freedom Fighter, but at the end he's legacy is probably more positive than not.

What are the positive aspects of his legacy with which I might not be familiar?

Leading the first transition from communist to democratic government in the Eastern Bloc. Of course you may say "but it was 1989 already", yet remember we still were in the very heart of the Soviet Bloc, surrounded by guys like Husak, Honecker and Ceausescu. Jaruzelski played a big part in this. In fact, there were talks between government and the opposition years before, something which would never happen in Romania or DDR. Last, but not least, he was successfully dealing with the hardliners during his entire tenure. It really could have been much worse with someone else in charge.

As of the Martial Law, I believe it's hard to determine whether it was a lesser or bigger evil, so I won't make a judgement there.

All right. I'd been under the impression that Jaruzelski was one of the hardliners, relatively speaking, so thank you for explaining this.

[Famous Mortimer]

RIP, HP.

Obviously I wouldn't call him a Freedom Fighter, but at the end he's legacy is probably more positive than not.

What are the positive aspects of his legacy with which I might not be familiar?

Leading the first transition from communist to democratic government in the Eastern Bloc. Of course you may say "but it was 1989 already", yet remember we still were in the very heart of the Soviet Bloc, surrounded by guys like Husak, Honecker and Ceausescu. Jaruzelski played a big part in this. In fact, there were talks between government and the opposition years before, something which would never happen in Romania or DDR. Last, but not least, he was successfully dealing with the hardliners during his entire tenure. It really could have been much worse with someone else in charge.

As of the Martial Law, I believe it's hard to determine whether it was a lesser or bigger evil, so I won't make a judgement there.

All right. I'd been under the impression that Jaruzelski was one of the hardliners, relatively speaking, so thank you for explaining this.

It's not at all clear. He has certainly tried to retroactively paint himself as opposed to the hardliners but there is debate about whether he actually was or not. He says he implemented martial law to prevent a Soviet invasion. Others say he implemented it because the Soviets wouldn't invade.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

For most of his career, Jaruzelski was pretty much a political turncock. First getting along well with Gomułka, then Gierek. One of the reasons I can't call him an FF is embracing Gomułka's shameful policies in March '68, when he was chief of the general staff. He was indeed an opportunist.

As of the martial law, I am, as most of the Poles, conflicted. But the fact is that the hardliners (which we used to call a "concrete") were already trying to sabotage him in early 1980s, viewing as "too weak" (Ironically, 1981 martial law brought far less human casaulties than 1926 May coup performed by a celebrated national hero Józef Piłsudski.)

Whether it was avoidable or was a "lesser evil" I can't say, but in retrospect we were rather fortunate to have Jaruzelski dealing with Solidarity than someone like Brezhnev or Ceausescu.

[ag]

Of a dead man, say either good things or nothing. Hence, I will remain silent.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

He takes the cake for the "people I forgot were still alive" award. My friends mom grew up under him, and was in grade school when they declared martial law. She grew up in interesting times, for sure.

[rob in cal]

   I distinctly remember hearing that in early January, 1989, Jaruzelski threatened to resign if the Polish Communist Party didn't agree to the round table talks with Solidarity.  I don't think he realized how far the reforms would go, but to his credit he did get them started in early 1989. they in turn, along with the parallel Hungarian developments got reform off and running in Eastern Europe.

[Indy Texas]

Looks like he had a thing for wearing big sunglasses all the time. Was this some sort of personal affectation?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Looks like he had a thing for wearing big sunglasses all the time. Was this some sort of personal affectation?

IIRC, he damaged his eyes working in a Soviet coal mine.