SENATE BILL: Ukrainian Technical, Economical and Military Aid (Debating)

[Lumine]

Ah what, Alfred?

Generally I favor minimizing entanglements but then part of me says sometimes you can minimize future entanglements with some involvement now, so it is a tough one for me.

I would honestly advice to act now with the aid, if the Ukrainian government sees the economy collapse and the Donetsk rebels are able to gather enough strength (which is more plausible than probable) then we will see a far uglier scenario that we could probably avoid by helping Ukraine (while making clear that said aid comes with conditions, as Superique, Shua and others pointed out).

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

What about the third party/NGO involvement? Do we need an amendment for that?

[Lumine]

What about the third party/NGO involvement? Do we need an amendment for that?

Certainly. I'm trying to draft one right now, but I'm still struggling with finding the right third party (one that would be both trustworthy and acceptable to the Senate). Any suggestions?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I don't think any single body is trustworthy enough to be handed $9 billion.  (and yes that includes the Atlasian Senate )

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I don't think any single body is trustworthy enough to be handed $9 billion.  (and yes that includes the Atlasian Senate )

So how about a collection of bodies instead?

[Sec. of State Superique]

I don't think any single body is trustworthy enough to be handed $9 billion.  (and yes that includes the Atlasian Senate )

So how about a collection of bodies instead?

Why don't we just create a special commission for that made by Smurfs that decide those bodies for us? I mean, I don't know if micromanaging everything and writing thousands of extremely detailed bills will be interesting for this game and for our Senate. I'm saying that not because I don't think that details are important (I do) but because most Atlasians are not really worried with which are the NGOs that are going to receive the money.

What I would recommend instead is establishing some criteria for the selection of the NGOs but not specifying which one of them are going to receive the money. We shouldn't handle money for NGOs that are involved with Ukranian Politicians for example; we shouldn't handle money for NGOs that discriminate on the basis of race, religion and so on; we shouldn't handle money for NGOs that are associated with the revolutionary folks of Donetsk. Those are the things that we ought to be worried, more than selecting the NGOs which should receive that money...

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Superique has the right idea as far as what we want to be legislating. 

However, $9 billion is a lot of money.  What are we trying to do that is so expensive?

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Does this Senate want to send arms to the Azov Battalion?

[TNF]

Does this Senate want to send arms to the Azov Battalion?

Apparently Herr Von Reunthal and the Fascist Federalist Party does.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Ukraine isn't controlled by neo-Nazis.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

What an objective source without any possible ulterior motives.

[Oakvale]

yea Alfred Jacobin or nothing

[Lumine]

Superique has the right idea as far as what we want to be legislating. 

However, $9 billion is a lot of money.  What are we trying to do that is so expensive?

Indeed, the reason why I chose such a large sum was that the Ukrainian economy almost suffered a crippling blow with all of this. The loss of Crimea and Sebastopol is already a heavy loss, and we have to remember that as long as Donetsk suffers the attack of Russian-backer insurgents and terrorists then that region can't be productive (and it is the single most productive one). Even more, the energy war Russia declared forced Ukraine to spend increasingly large amounts of money to keep the oil flowing. I chose $9 billions by comparing to what other countries have sent, as a Japan sent $10 billion or so and the European Union has sent two or three times that sum.

Since this is directed as a long term effort to protect and help Ukraine, I figured a large amount made more sense than $1 or $2 billions, which would be more symbolic than effective given the expenses.

[Lumine]

What an objective source without any possible ulterior motives.

Says the man who praises Venezuela and uses government sources to base such undeserved praise. I'm not a fan of ad-hominem attacks, but the irony here is quite noteworthy.

[TNF]

What an objective source without any possible ulterior motives.

Says the man who praises Venezuela and uses government sources to base such undeserved praise. I'm not a fan of ad-hominem attacks, but the irony here is quite noteworthy.

Venezuela is an actual democracy, unlike Neo-Nazi-Neoliberal Ukraine.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

What an objective source without any possible ulterior motives.

Says the man who praises Venezuela and uses government sources to base such undeserved praise. I'm not a fan of ad-hominem attacks, but the irony here is quite noteworthy.

Venezuela is an actual democracy, unlike Neo-Nazi-Neoliberal Ukraine.

Nope. Not true.

[TNF]

Citing 'Forbes' and 'Freedomhouse' doesn't really make your argument any more founded, given that those are organizations that want to see the Bolivarian Revolution fail.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Citing 'Forbes' and 'Freedomhouse' doesn't really make your argument any more founded, given that those are organizations that want to see the Bolivarian Revolution fail.

Are your sources any better? And why do you say that Freedom House doesn't support the Bolivarian Revolution?

[TNF]

Citing 'Forbes' and 'Freedomhouse' doesn't really make your argument any more founded, given that those are organizations that want to see the Bolivarian Revolution fail.

Are your sources any better? And why do you say that Freedom House doesn't support the Bolivarian Revolution?

Because it's a tool of American imperialism, and has been since it's founding during the Cold War.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Citing 'Forbes' and 'Freedomhouse' doesn't really make your argument any more founded, given that those are organizations that want to see the Bolivarian Revolution fail.

Are your sources any better? And why do you say that Freedom House doesn't support the Bolivarian Revolution?

Because it's a tool of American imperialism, and has been since it's founding during the Cold War.

Are you hating on Eleanor Roosevelt?

[Cincinnatus]

Are we ready for an up or down vote?  What, if anything, do you want to do about the $9b shua?  If there's nothing left to debate except Neo-Nazi's, perhaps someone should motion for a final vote?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Was it Lumine or Superique that suggested a panel to determine the dsitribution of the money?

[Lumine]

Was it Lumine or Superique that suggested a panel to determine the dsitribution of the money?

Superique did, and I'm currently writing a simple amendment to address that. It will be up in a few minutes!

[Lumine]

I essentially used Superique's language in previous posts at it seemed reasonable to me:

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[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

You offering that now or just sampling opinions at present?