SENATE BILL: Ukrainian Technical, Economical and Military Aid (Debating)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Damn it Cincy.

[Lumine]

I can't believe this vote has gone on for so long, xD

Windjammer, we need you!

[windjammer]

Don't worry

[windjammer]

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The results of the vote:
Aye (3): Senator TNF, Senator Bore, Senator Tyrion
Nay (3): Senator Lumine, Senator Alfred, Senator Yankee (yep, even lean Nay, that's still a Nay )
Non voting (4): Senator Shua (too late Shua, sorry), Senator Griffin (obviously too late ), Senator Goldwater, Senator DC
The VP shall break the tie.

[windjammer]

So I shall break the tie:

Seriously, I'm saddened to see that 4 senators missed the vote. Well, this is a problem with communication I guess. You were probably unaware there was a vote.
So, first reform I will do: I will PM all of you when I will open a vote!

Now, the amendment.
I would have loved asking some questions to TNF before breaking the tie, but I was unable to do so. So I will ask these questions right now. TNF, I know you have some problems with a storm in Kentucky, so take your time for answering to my questions (but I would like you to answer to mu question?)

1)

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2)

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What's the problem with that? I don't understand. This is not something we should advocate diplomatically? I don't understand why you want to delete that. That's not controversial at all.


3) 2.

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What's the problem with that again?


4)

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If I understand correctly, you want to spend more money in Atlasia, and not for foreign countries. Well, that's fine. The only problem is that this is ONLY 1 BILLION. Do you realize how 1 BILLION represents absolutely nothing? I mean, our spending, this isn't something like 2000B? Wow, that seems to be a great progress in term of our spending. We would spend 1 Billion less.


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5 ) Now I have a question for TNF, Tyrion, Bore and Adam, who all voted for TNF's amendment.
Why did you vote for this amendment seriously?
Maybe not Tyrion, but I recall correctly, TNF, Bore and Adam, you all describe yourselves as "socialist" (or even communist for TNF);, or at least social democrat.
So I think I need to quote Marx: "Workers of all countries, unite".
Don't you believe you're a bit against Marx by voting for amendments throwing under the bus Ukranians???


Oh and TNF, please. The Ukrainian resistance isn't nazi.

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Now, I will explain how I view the situation (hthe debates have ended on this amendment, so I can do that!)

I think that unfortunately some senators are unable to be against "Russia" because of its past (and really, I believe this is a reason, although this is psychological, so some senators don't even know that about them). Let it be clear: Russia has NEVER been a paradise for workers. The USSR was obviously a dictatorship, and Putin has obviously not improved the situation at all.
When I see Russia, well, what I see is a current dictator (Putin) and oppresing Russians and the minorities. Yep, I don't think I have to remind all of you the recent laws that passed in Russia about homosexuality. And not only the gay people, but the other minorities as well (like Tchetchenia for example). I would like all senators to remember that before voting.

And especially TNF, who was so vocal to his opposition of Israel, claiming that Israel was apartheid, and that Atlasia should break all relations with Israel. (but with the good job of Superique and the former SoEA, the situation has improved). I would like he uses his energy against Israel as well against Russia. Regarding minorities (gay, ethny,...), Russia is indeed much worse than Israel.

Now, speaking about Lumine's bill. I obviously support it. I don't see the problem with this bill, and really. This bill has only used "diplomacy". This isn't like using the threat of military intervention against Russia or anything like that. And 5 billion represent absolutely nothing in term of spending for Atlasia... To be honest, I sincerely believe this bill doesn't go far enough. We shouldn't only help Ukrainians, we should take economic sanctions against Russia!

Making the world safer is a necessity. Isolationnism is truly not an option anymore. With globalization, we're forced to cooperate with other countries, even if we don't like them. We're the most powerful country of the world, this is our duty to do that. Especially when it doesn't undermine our interests at all. We need to make the world safer. Protecting relatively "weak" countries from agressive and powerful countries like Russia. (that's why I hope we will be able to reform UNO).

And for those who don't believe at all in this ideal. Keep in mind that b protecting Ukraine, we're protecting our interests. If Ukraine falls, other countries will soon fall as well: the baltic countries, then Poland,... By doing nothing, we risk to lose our influence in the world: politically, but economically as well. I mean, for instance, an independent Ukraine will be more open than a colonized Ukraine for trade with the USA...

And finally, I read some concerns made by Deus about "this help risks to be hijacked by corrupt people." Yep, corruption is a problem in Ukraine. But I don't believe simply cutting the economical help is the answer to this. I'm sure the senators will be able to propose amendments ending this problem. I don't know, like watching carefully how this money is spent. I believe trying to solve the problem is a better solution than simply throwing Ukrainians under the bus.


So: NAY
 

[windjammer]

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The results of the vote:
Aye (3): Senator TNF, Senator Bore, Senator Tyrion
Nay (4): Senator Lumine, Senator Alfred, Senator Yankee, VP Windjammer
Non voting (4): Senator Shua (too late Shua, sorry), Senator Griffin (obviously too late ), Senator Goldwater, Senator DC


This amendments fails.
I, Windjammer, president of the Atlasian Senate, certify these  results are accurate.




Please Yankee, tell me these results are accurate .

Shua and Griffin's votes are invalid because they voted too late (after 3 days!). I guess?

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

I thank the Vice President for executing the duties of his office faithfully and standing on the side of justice for the people of Ukraine .

[Deus Naturae]

I thank the Vice President for executing the duties of his office faithfully and standing on the side of justice for the people of Ukraine .

How will this help the Ukrainian people? The supporters of this bill still have yet to give an explanation for what this aid will actually be used for and how it will benefit Ukraine...

[Lumine]

I thank the Vice-President as well for his detailed and enthusiastic speech, and for vote and the defeat of this amendment. As we've been discussing this more than a month and like my other efforts this seems divisive enough to gather "Aye's" or "Nay's" rather quickly, I wonder if a final vote is a good idea here as well.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

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[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

So I shall break the tie:

Seriously, I'm saddened to see that 4 senators missed the vote. Well, this is a problem with communication I guess. You were probably unaware there was a vote.
So, first reform I will do: I will PM all of you when I will open a vote! 

The topic title was not updated when Cincy opened the vote, that is why it was missed by so many people.

PMs will probably be necessary, especailly where bills where we cannot update the thread topic titles between us like this one started by Cincy (Cincy seems to be rather detached, his response to my last PM was that he was retired adn something about his lawn).

I used to send out PMs, rather sadistic and creepy ones to get people's attention. People began to not appreciate them and even grumple about them and twoards the end of last year once Gass, Nappy and Xahar had left, it didn't appear to be necessary as people were voting rather regularly and so I stopped. I should have started again in March.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Lumine, thoughts on 62:01? (probably but I haven't reached the bottom yet, could be 62:02 or 62:03).

[President Tyrion]

Winjammer, which amendment are you talking about? I'm always glad to clarify my stances but I'm a little confused as to what you're asking me about.

[Lumine]

I had my concerns over being too vague at not mentioning that this goes to the government, but I understand the intention behind the amendment and I consider it friendly.

[windjammer]

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This amendment Tyrion.

1) Why deleting the Preamble, Tyrion? There is nothing controversial. Maybe you're openly backing the annexation of Crimea by Russia?

2) Why deleting section 1? I don't see how this is controversial.

3) Why deleting the "unity part". How is this controversial? Are you supporting a divided Ukraine? What's the problem with this part?

4) What's the problem with the former section 2 point 2? In which way helping the Ukrainians to face the problems with gaz is controversial?

5) And finallyn, why cutting the aid by 1B? 1 Billion represents absolutely nothing in term of spending for Atlasia (our spending= something like 2000B???). But for Ukraine, it is important 1B.
So why constantly cutting the aid? I honestly just see a reason: Ukrainophobia.


I would like to remind all of you, and especially you Tyrion, that Russia is far worse than Israel on minority matters. Yep, Russia passed recently anti gay laws for isntance. And ti's better not to be in ethnic minority (like Georgian,...) if you want to save your life. Russia is far worse than Israel for that.

Considering you voted for the TNF plan, completely ending any economic relations with Israel (=economic sanctions) few weeks ago, a plan much more agressive than the Lumine's plan. So I would like to know, why constantly voting for these amendments, especially because you supported something much more aggressive against Israel few weeks ago?

And please,
1) The Ukrainian resistance isn't nazi.
2) And yep, spending can be hijacked by criminals. That doesn't mean cutting is the right thing to do. The best is to improve a bit (like watching seriously how this would be spent,...). I mean, every government spending can be hijacked by corrupt people. Does that mean the atlasian government spendings shall be cut entirely? I'm sure, considering your party, you don't support that .

I don't understand your concerns with this bill:
1) There is no miitary intervention
2) and there isn't even economic sanctions against Russia.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

1 Billion, or 5 Billion, isn't chump change.  I'm definitely willing to spend something on this bill, but I do have concerns about whether it is a wise amount of spending on this. If it is less, I have a feeling it will be invested more wisely. I am concerned about Ukraine, but there are a lot of other areas in the world that could use our help too, and so spending too much here is an opportunity cost both at home and abroad.

[windjammer]

1 Billion, or 5 Billion, isn't chump change.  I'm definitely willing to spend something on this bill, but I do have concerns about whether it is a wise amount of spending on this. If it is less, I have a feeling it will be invested more wisely. I am concerned about Ukraine, but there are a lot of other areas in the world that could use our help too, and so spending too much here is an opportunity cost both at home and abroad.

Well, I understand your concern. But seriously, debating between allocating 5B or 4B, that's not really a lot of differences.

I hope you have read the DemPGHWindjammer platform on foreign policy. That could answer to some of your questions regarding what the DeMPGH administration wants to do in term of spending!

[windjammer]

Since Lumine is friendly to shua's amendment,

Senator, you have until July 07, 2014, 10:18:25 pm to object to shua's amendment.

[DemPGH]

1 Billion, or 5 Billion, isn't chump change.  I'm definitely willing to spend something on this bill, but I do have concerns about whether it is a wise amount of spending on this. If it is less, I have a feeling it will be invested more wisely. I am concerned about Ukraine, but there are a lot of other areas in the world that could use our help too, and so spending too much here is an opportunity cost both at home and abroad.

It is wise to question that amount of money - especially with the push to get involved in Iraq again as well. We risk throwing away an awful lot of money. Perhaps a lesser amount would be more palatable? Like, a lot less?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I made a change to my amendment, in the title, since military aid is no longer a part of this bill.

1 Billion, or 5 Billion, isn't chump change.  I'm definitely willing to spend something on this bill, but I do have concerns about whether it is a wise amount of spending on this. If it is less, I have a feeling it will be invested more wisely. I am concerned about Ukraine, but there are a lot of other areas in the world that could use our help too, and so spending too much here is an opportunity cost both at home and abroad.

It is wise to question that amount of money - especially with the push to get involved in Iraq again as well. We risk throwing away an awful lot of money. Perhaps a lesser amount would be more palatable? Like, a lot less?

I would be open to that.  At the same time we do want it to be enough so that it is actually helpful, and I might support this bill even with the current amount.

[Lumine]

I made a change to my amendment, in the title, since military aid is no longer a part of this bill.

1 Billion, or 5 Billion, isn't chump change.  I'm definitely willing to spend something on this bill, but I do have concerns about whether it is a wise amount of spending on this. If it is less, I have a feeling it will be invested more wisely. I am concerned about Ukraine, but there are a lot of other areas in the world that could use our help too, and so spending too much here is an opportunity cost both at home and abroad.

It is wise to question that amount of money - especially with the push to get involved in Iraq again as well. We risk throwing away an awful lot of money. Perhaps a lesser amount would be more palatable? Like, a lot less?

I would be open to that.  At the same time we do want it to be enough so that it is actually helpful, and I might support this bill even with the current amount.

I believe a lot less would defeat the purpose of sending help, as Shua pointed out. Japan alone has given two to three the amount I'm requesting, and they have economic problems of their own. Surely it's not far fetched to use 5 Billion when we are already spending larger sums in other projects...

[TNF]

I like Shua's amendment. I don't think I'll be voting for this at any rate (it conflicts with my anti-imperialist principles) but I do support watering it down as much as possible, given that the author of this bill would be just fine with sending Atlasian soldiers to die in defense of the Ukrainian regime.

[Lumine]

I like Shua's amendment. I don't think I'll be voting for this at any rate (it conflicts with my anti-imperialist principles) but I do support watering it down as much as possible, given that the author of this bill would be just fine with sending Atlasian soldiers to die in defense of the Ukrainian regime.

And you would just fine with condemning Ukraine to economic slavery and continous revolts funded by pro-Russian events. Although I should point out I never spoke about sending actual combat troops, but facts don't seem to matter a lot these days...

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

I like Shua's amendment. I don't think I'll be voting for this at any rate (it conflicts with my anti-imperialist principles) but I do support watering it down as much as possible, given that the author of this bill would be just fine with sending Atlasian soldiers to die in defense of the Ukrainian regime.

That's not what the bill is, Senator, and you know it. You're better than this.

[TNF]

I like Shua's amendment. I don't think I'll be voting for this at any rate (it conflicts with my anti-imperialist principles) but I do support watering it down as much as possible, given that the author of this bill would be just fine with sending Atlasian soldiers to die in defense of the Ukrainian regime.

And you would just fine with condemning Ukraine to economic slavery and continous revolts funded by pro-Russian events. Although I should point out I never spoke about sending actual combat troops, but facts don't seem to matter a lot these days...

Nah, I oppose capitalism.