SENATE BILL: The Bicameral Birthing Amendment of 2014 (sent to the Regions?)

[President Tyrion]

What if the vacant seat does not belong to member of an organized party?

We can deal with this in several different ways.

We of course could just have an election for the seat in question.

We could allow the House to vote on a list of declared candidates, whom will have one week or so after the vacancy occurs to make their intent to run known.

We could even allow the Governor of the region of the person who has vacated the seat to make an appointment, though I find myself opposed to the idea of giving regions any say in this chamber's affairs.

Honestly, with two month terms, why not just leave the seat vacant?

That's viable, too, though I'd hate to have a situation in which we had a vacant seat for 7 weeks or so.

Perhaps we could just allow presidential appointment?

[Adam Griffin]

What if the vacant seat does not belong to member of an organized party?

We can deal with this in several different ways.

We of course could just have an election for the seat in question.

We could allow the House to vote on a list of declared candidates, whom will have one week or so after the vacancy occurs to make their intent to run known.

We could even allow the Governor of the region of the person who has vacated the seat to make an appointment, though I find myself opposed to the idea of giving regions any say in this chamber's affairs.

Honestly, with two month terms, why not just leave the seat vacant?

That's viable, too, though I'd hate to have a situation in which we had a vacant seat for 7 weeks or so.

Perhaps we could just allow presidential appointment?

Sure, why not?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

This is remarkable similar to the debate over how to deal with the late term At-Large vacancies, which Parties can fill. But of course there, it is a shorter period time then seven or eight weeks obviously. Also if there are multiple indy vacancies that could be rather problematic.

With PR, how many indies would be expected to be able to win? Is it possible for more then oen to win?

[bore]

This is remarkable similar to the debate over how to deal with the late term At-Large vacancies, which Parties can fill. But of course there, it is a shorter period time then seven or eight weeks obviously. Also if there are multiple indy vacancies that could be rather problematic.

With PR, how many indies would be expected to be able to win? Is it possible for more then oen to win?

I wouldn't expect many indies to win for the simple reason that the vast majority of registered indies are semi retired old timers who don't really run for things.

But with an 11 seat at large election you wouldn't need a huge amount of votes to be elected, so it's certainly not impossible.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

PLPR is where a bunch of people vote for a party and then if the party gets X seats they choose their X favorite candidates and those people go to the House, correct?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

This is remarkable similar to the debate over how to deal with the late term At-Large vacancies, which Parties can fill. But of course there, it is a shorter period time then seven or eight weeks obviously. Also if there are multiple indy vacancies that could be rather problematic.

With PR, how many indies would be expected to be able to win? Is it possible for more then oen to win?

I think if we do an open-list election for all 11 seats, and there is an independent/minor party list, or perhaps even two such lists, and there ar some strong candidates, more than one win should be possible.

[Barnes]

This is remarkable similar to the debate over how to deal with the late term At-Large vacancies, which Parties can fill. But of course there, it is a shorter period time then seven or eight weeks obviously. Also if there are multiple indy vacancies that could be rather problematic.

With PR, how many indies would be expected to be able to win? Is it possible for more then oen to win?

I think if we do an open-list election for all 11 seats, and there is an independent/minor party list, or perhaps even two such lists, and there are some strong candidates, more than one win should be possible.

If I may make a few contributions here: it is most certainly possible to elect several independents under open-list PR if said independents ran strong campaigns - which has certainly been achieved before in Atlasia's history!

On the matter of vacancies, I am already skeptical of any form of appointment to an elected office and totally opposed to filling a vacancy left by an independent left in this manner. Simply by virtue of electing an independent, the voters directly chose to not endorse the political positions of any party but the specific positions of one candidate. No executive can legitimately claim to be able to appoint another independent to fill such a vacancy - seeing as such a replacement cannot be viewed as an acceptable successor to the positions of he previous independent.

A solution to this can be to simply allow the seat to remain vacant until the next election. Alternatively, a special election could be held within a reasonable timeframe.

Looking at the issue of replacement for members who are from a party, an easier solution could be for the next candidate on the party list to be automatically awarded the vacant seat. If the list is exhausted, then the method of the party choosing the replacement could be implemented.

[Barnes]

PLPR is where a bunch of people vote for a party and then if the party gets X seats they choose their X favorite candidates and those people go to the House?

Basically. A recent example would be the European Parliamentary elections in May. There are two main systems, both of which are used throughout the EU: closed-list and open-list. The first allows the voter to only vote for one party - giving their support to the full list of candidates the party puts forward but to no others. The second allows the voter to individually rank each candidate.

Also, most nations using the system employ a minimum threshold percentage for a party to receive any seats - although, even in systems with no threshold, there is obviously a base mathematical amount of support that they must receive.

[Prince of Salem]

Are regular citizens allowed to amend Senate bills/proposed Constitutional amendments? If so, I want to propose one

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2. Article 1, Section 4 of the Third Constitution of Atlasia is amended to read:

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Section 3: The Addition of the House

1. Article 1, Section 8 of the Third Constitution shall be entitled “The House” and shall read:
   

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Section 4: House Districts and Elections

1. Article 1, Section 9 of the Third Constitution shall be entitled “Elections to the House” and shall read:

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[/quote]

Hope it's good enough, it's the first time I try something like this ^^

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Only sitting Senators may propose amendments or vote. You can post it though and try to get a Senator to introduce it for you.

[President Tyrion]

I'll sponsor the amendment unless someone really wants it for some reason.

I'll say that I'm not a fan of a net creation of 11 offices, although I wouldn't mind untying this from consolidation if possible.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The major problem is a substantial net increase in offices is impractial absent consolidation and it compensatory reductions in regional offices.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I'll sponsor the amendment unless someone really wants it for some reason.

I'll say that I'm not a fan of a net creation of 11 offices, although I wouldn't mind untying this from consolidation if possible.

It is not eleven, it would be six.

10 person Senate - minus 5 At-large seats =  5 Senator Seats Plus 11 House seats leves you with 16 for a net of six increase.

We would have to reverse and go back to the Duke plans eight member house at the very least and with a five person senate for a net increase of three in order to untie it from consolidation.

[President Tyrion]

I'll sponsor the amendment unless someone really wants it for some reason.

I'll say that I'm not a fan of a net creation of 11 offices, although I wouldn't mind untying this from consolidation if possible.

We would have to reverse and go back to the Duke plans eight houses at the very least and keep a five person senate for a net increase of three in order to untie it from consolidation.

Maybe 7 in the house, 5 in the Senate? Ties in the House are a pain because there isn't a natural VP-type unless we want to give the VP that tiebreaking power.

[Adam Griffin]

I'll say that I'm not a fan of a net creation of 11 offices, although I wouldn't mind untying this from consolidation if possible.

This kind of has to be tied to consolidation, for the reason below.

It is not eleven, it would be six.

10 person Senate - minus 5 At-large seats =  5 Senator Seats Plus 11 House seats leves you with 16 for a net of six increase.

We would have to reverse and go back to the Duke plans eight member house at the very least and with a five person senate for a net increase of three in order to untie it from consolidation.

You're forgetting that we will shed around 10 regional offices with this proposal upon the passage of consolidation. I don't think regions - many of which are already lacking competition - will rush to create a bunch of new legislative seats to fill the gap. This is why I can't support de-coupling this fundamentally from consolidation. Otherwise, we would have a net increase of offices in the game. This should result net-net in a slight reduction of offices overall.

[Adam Griffin]

Also, PLPR could be setup to function in two different ways:

Closed-list for the major parties
Open-list for everyone else

Each major party would be allowed to determine how it will handle the selection/order of candidates
Everyone else would caucus together and use standard PR-STV to determine selection/order

There are of course different ways to do open-list, but there's no reason we can't provide ample representation of the unaffiliated segments of the electorate. This probably would, however, encourage individuals to join one party or another, as you'll have various left-and-right-wing factions within said caucus vying for representation among one another (which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing).

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Can't we just have the system that means that the parties hold whatever sort of primary they want and rank the candidates that way? I think it should be up to the voters of each party to determine how they want to rank their people.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I'll say that I'm not a fan of a net creation of 11 offices, although I wouldn't mind untying this from consolidation if possible.

This kind of has to be tied to consolidation, for the reason below.

It is not eleven, it would be six.

10 person Senate - minus 5 At-large seats =  5 Senator Seats Plus 11 House seats leves you with 16 for a net of six increase.

We would have to reverse and go back to the Duke plans eight member house at the very least and with a five person senate for a net increase of three in order to untie it from consolidation.

You're forgetting that we will shed around 10 regional offices with this proposal upon the passage of consolidation. I don't think regions - many of which are already lacking competition - will rush to create a bunch of new legislative seats to fill the gap. This is why I can't support de-coupling this fundamentally from consolidation. Otherwise, we would have a net increase of offices in the game. This should result net-net in a slight reduction of offices overall.

I forgot nothing, I was responding to Tyrion, correcting his numbers and then opining on the only way of doing this absent consolidation.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

So I assume you find the Tyrion amendment hostile Adam?

[President Tyrion]

Ok, Adam, but if we do 7 in the House, 5 in the Senate, that's a short term gain of only two offices. With semi-presidentialism, that's basically the status quo, but bicameral.

I think that's a good short term solution while we work out the kinks of consolidation.

I'm just trying to avoid there being two forms of opposition: those who don't want consolidation, and those who don't want bicameralism. That's like making a pitch right on the corner of the strike zone. Since there are two directions in which it could be not a strike, it's less likely to be called a strike than pitches equally as far from the center of the strike zone in either the x- or z- directions.

[Adam Griffin]

Yes, amendment is hostile, unfortunately.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Ok, Adam, but if we do 7 in the House, 5 in the Senate, that's a short term gain of only two offices. With semi-presidentialism, that's basically the status quo, but bicameral.

I think that's a good short term solution while we work out the kinks of consolidation.

I'm just trying to avoid there being two forms of opposition: those who don't want consolidation, and those who don't want bicameralism. That's like making a pitch right on the corner of the strike zone. Since there are two directions in which it could be not a strike, it's less likely to be called a strike than pitches equally as far from the center of the strike zone in either the x- or z- directions.

Semi-Presidential could be a third form of opposiiton, though, no?

[President Tyrion]

Ok, Adam, but if we do 7 in the House, 5 in the Senate, that's a short term gain of only two offices. With semi-presidentialism, that's basically the status quo, but bicameral.

I think that's a good short term solution while we work out the kinks of consolidation.

I'm just trying to avoid there being two forms of opposition: those who don't want consolidation, and those who don't want bicameralism. That's like making a pitch right on the corner of the strike zone. Since there are two directions in which it could be not a strike, it's less likely to be called a strike than pitches equally as far from the center of the strike zone in either the x- or z- directions.

Semi-Presidential could be a third form of opposiiton, though, no?

Well, it already exists, no?

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

The lowest I'd go in the House is 9, 7 is too few. And we should have an even number of senators so the VP can continue to break ties, since I think that alone makes that position relevant.

As others have said, this goes into effect if we consolidate the regions, otherwise, we may as well continue on with the same old status quo we've lived with for years.

[Adam Griffin]

The lowest I'd go in the House is 9, 7 is too few. And we should have an even number of senators so the VP can continue to break ties, since I think that alone makes that position relevant.

As others have said, this goes into effect if we consolidate the regions, otherwise, we may as well continue on with the same old status quo we've lived with for years.

This is of course the correct approach.

And it's not lost on me that there are people within the consolidation movement that have differing objectives/visions for what would occur: that was quite obvious during CARCA. The thing was that as long as we tried to appease everyone, it got nowhere. Only once CARCAwas set forth did the 3-region variation become the generally accepted goal.

The goal of this isn't even necessarily to be ratified within the next month or so, but rather, to use the 17th Amendment's powers to put something on the books that will remain there permanently an give everyone an idea/incentive to move forward with FTRA ratification in the future. We can't really give something to everyone when we already have anywhere from 35-55% of the game that opposes consolidation in the first place.