SENATE BILL: The Bicameral Birthing Amendment of 2014 (sent to the Regions?)

[President Tyrion]

Are we willing to have a bicameral legislature with a 5 region setup?

I understand that the major issue is that we don't want a net creation of offices, but I'm not sure how we could pass this while tying it to the (very necessary) regional reduction.

[President Tyrion]

Nay

[President Tyrion]

The administration is fine with an 11 member house. I had argued for less so we'd have more competitive elections, but I won't oppose something larger assuming we don't enact this with a 5 region country.

I would be more supportive of an all region senate and all at-large house. I like balance. And for you anti-regionalists, the at-large seats almost out number the regional seats 2 to 1! How about that!

Well, we don't know what the House is meant to be doing, yet.

[President Tyrion]

Anyone else have any ideas they want to add?

I thought that bills could start in the House and then be sent to the Senate for final changes and a final vote before it became law. The VP would act as a liaison between both houses. The House would elect a speaker and the senate would retain its non-partisan PPT as I laid out in my plan.

If we decide to also want both houses to pass the same bill before it's signed by the President, we can, we just will have less bills and more debate than we do now, which might not be a bad thing considering the lack of bills in the queue.

Yes, I like this. I don't think a pure American system is tenable because there isn't enough time in the day to have bills go back and forth to ensure the same version is passed by both houses.

[President Tyrion]

Anyone else have any ideas they want to add?

I thought that bills could start in the House and then be sent to the Senate for final changes and a final vote before it became law. The VP would act as a liaison between both houses. The House would elect a speaker and the senate would retain its non-partisan PPT as I laid out in my plan.

If we decide to also want both houses to pass the same bill before it's signed by the President, we can, we just will have less bills and more debate than we do now, which might not be a bad thing considering the lack of bills in the queue.

Yes, I like this. I don't think a pure American system is tenable because there isn't enough time in the day to have bills go back and forth to ensure the same version is passed by both houses.

That was my thought as well. If we do the mirror rule, we'd cut down severely on the amount of bills passed per session, so I think A -> B is a more realistic goal. Maybe the VP could work with the PPT and Speaker to make sure the bill is acceptable before it's sent to the senate for fear of it being rejected there.

Which I think would be a fun twist of politicking!

[President Tyrion]

If we're doing Party-list representation in the House, then we might want to consider that a Party can choose to expel its own House members.

[President Tyrion]

Er, if my objection accidentally triggers a vote, I can withdraw it. Whatever makes things go faster...

[President Tyrion]

What if the vacant seat does not belong to member of an organized party?

We can deal with this in several different ways.

We of course could just have an election for the seat in question.

We could allow the House to vote on a list of declared candidates, whom will have one week or so after the vacancy occurs to make their intent to run known.

We could even allow the Governor of the region of the person who has vacated the seat to make an appointment, though I find myself opposed to the idea of giving regions any say in this chamber's affairs.

Honestly, with two month terms, why not just leave the seat vacant?

[President Tyrion]

What if the vacant seat does not belong to member of an organized party?

We can deal with this in several different ways.

We of course could just have an election for the seat in question.

We could allow the House to vote on a list of declared candidates, whom will have one week or so after the vacancy occurs to make their intent to run known.

We could even allow the Governor of the region of the person who has vacated the seat to make an appointment, though I find myself opposed to the idea of giving regions any say in this chamber's affairs.

Honestly, with two month terms, why not just leave the seat vacant?

That's viable, too, though I'd hate to have a situation in which we had a vacant seat for 7 weeks or so.

Perhaps we could just allow presidential appointment?

[President Tyrion]

I'll sponsor the amendment unless someone really wants it for some reason.

I'll say that I'm not a fan of a net creation of 11 offices, although I wouldn't mind untying this from consolidation if possible.

[President Tyrion]

I'll sponsor the amendment unless someone really wants it for some reason.

I'll say that I'm not a fan of a net creation of 11 offices, although I wouldn't mind untying this from consolidation if possible.

We would have to reverse and go back to the Duke plans eight houses at the very least and keep a five person senate for a net increase of three in order to untie it from consolidation.

Maybe 7 in the house, 5 in the Senate? Ties in the House are a pain because there isn't a natural VP-type unless we want to give the VP that tiebreaking power.

[President Tyrion]

Ok, Adam, but if we do 7 in the House, 5 in the Senate, that's a short term gain of only two offices. With semi-presidentialism, that's basically the status quo, but bicameral.

I think that's a good short term solution while we work out the kinks of consolidation.

I'm just trying to avoid there being two forms of opposition: those who don't want consolidation, and those who don't want bicameralism. That's like making a pitch right on the corner of the strike zone. Since there are two directions in which it could be not a strike, it's less likely to be called a strike than pitches equally as far from the center of the strike zone in either the x- or z- directions.

[President Tyrion]

Ok, Adam, but if we do 7 in the House, 5 in the Senate, that's a short term gain of only two offices. With semi-presidentialism, that's basically the status quo, but bicameral.

I think that's a good short term solution while we work out the kinks of consolidation.

I'm just trying to avoid there being two forms of opposition: those who don't want consolidation, and those who don't want bicameralism. That's like making a pitch right on the corner of the strike zone. Since there are two directions in which it could be not a strike, it's less likely to be called a strike than pitches equally as far from the center of the strike zone in either the x- or z- directions.

Semi-Presidential could be a third form of opposiiton, though, no?

Well, it already exists, no?

[President Tyrion]

Nay

I can't accept the net increase of offices, and I think I'm coming around to agreeing with Griffin's point of view on the holistic process.

[President Tyrion]

Thank you, Mr. Jomcar, and I hope our nitpickiness does not scare you off

[President Tyrion]

Perhaps Duke is right....

Maybe Party List just doesn't have the popular appeal...

[President Tyrion]

Well there we go again, we already failed once with the state moves thing did we not? Is there any path that doesn't run into that same kind of or similar resistnace?

I think the resistance might go down a bit if the idea was to implement districts.

[President Tyrion]

Since we haven't changed the text in 5 pages and like a month, here's a big change. I'm reverting the party list wording, and I made a few changes.

Please check my work.

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2. Article 1, Section 4 of the Third Constitution of Atlasia is amended to read:

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Section 3: The Addition of the House

1. Article 1, Section 8 of the Third Constitution shall be entitled “The House” and shall read:
   

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Section 4: House Districts and Elections

1. Article 1, Section 9 of the Third Constitution shall be entitled “Elections to the House” and shall read:

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[President Tyrion]

So, let me get this straight...if we create more offices, we'll have to destroy two of the Regions to solve the problem of...too many offices? If that's the case, why create more offices two begin with?

You'll be pleased to know that the strawman you just erected isn't actually relevant to the debate.

The bicameral system is not being proposed to reduce the number of offices (though it will, likely, have that effect, but only slightly) - it is proposed because some people think that a bicameral system would be more fun to play than a unicameral one. However, because a bicameral system must lead to an increase in federal offices, because there are only a finite number of players, we need to decrease the number of regional offices.

Consolidation is a necessary byproduct, but a byproduct is all it is.

I would seriously disagree with that. You only get a net increase of 5 offices. That does not warrant consolidating to three regions. Many supporters of consolidation (especially on the left) want to do so to send my region into oblivion out of political expediency.

Uh, no. Surprisingly, the world does not revolve around you.

[President Tyrion]

We're ready? Anyone have any concerns?

[President Tyrion]

Booooo, booooo

We're ready? Anyone have any concerns?

What about what Yankee mentioned?

I thought his concern was with Senate rules?

[President Tyrion]

Aye

Given that the sponsor indicated that he was ready for a final vote three days ago, and given that we haven't really heard anything else substantive on this matter, I'm going to open a final vote.

Senators, a final vote is now open on this amendment. Please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.

So what your saying is what I've been saying for the past several weeks doesn't matter to this debate?

You just aren't seeing agreement. You can't complain about that. We just all disagree with you.