Do you think the United States is imperial?
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  Do you think the United States is imperial?
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Author Topic: Do you think the United States is imperial?  (Read 1692 times)
Flake
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« on: May 31, 2014, 10:14:06 AM »

Why or why not?
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2014, 10:49:24 AM »

Since the Quasi-War and the attacks on the Barbary pirates, the United States has acted to protect and serve the interests of multinational corporations, wealthy donors and international financial institutions. This has meant the toppling of elected governments to establish friendly puppet dictators, promoting trade agreements which exploit foreign land and labor, back governments with horrific human rights situations in the interests of securing natural resources, American corporations effectively controlling foreign governments (United Fruit in Guatemala being the paramount example, Coca-Cola in Colombia another), and using soft power to extend its tentacles across the world for the benefit of its plutocratic masters--it's scary how little attention was given to Biden's son getting a slot on a major Ukrainian gas company right after the vice president visited Kiev, or the vested interests that investors have in toppling Venezuela's democracy and seeing their state oil company divided between the highest bidders.

So yeah, I guess you could say the United States is an imperial power. Not that the other great powers are any better.
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Cassius
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« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2014, 11:02:37 AM »
« Edited: May 31, 2014, 11:04:55 AM by Former Assemblyman Cassius »

It could, perhaps, be argued that the United States is an informal 'Empire', given that it exercises such a strong influence in the world and over certain areas of it in particular. However, I would say that one needs to be careful when describing America as an Empire (it's influence is strong, but should not be overrated, especially in present times). Moreover, the fact that the United States is a democracy severely limits its capacity to be effective as an Empire (just look at the 1920's, where America, to a certain extent, retreated from the world stage, partly due to public and poilitical opinion).

I'd like to say as well that popular comparisons of America to the Roman Empire (perhaps less common now than they used to be) are severely flawed. If there's an ancient state that America is most similar, its Athens. The latter was one of the most 'democratic' states in the ancient world (by the standards of the time), and it's empire was not one of territory, but rather an informal affair, bound together through its alliance system (the Delian League) and by trade. The latter is indeed somewhat comparable to NATO and the influence of American corporations throughout the world (though NATO is a far less one sided affair than the Delian League).
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TNF
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« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2014, 11:32:50 AM »

Yes, all developed first world economies are, in some fashion, imperialist powers.
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freefair
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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2014, 11:52:50 AM »

Yes, all developed first world economies are, in some fashion, imperialist powers.
Lol at the idea of the Nordic nations or Switzerland acting imperialist.
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windjammer
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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2014, 11:58:16 AM »

Of course the  United States is imperialist, like all countries.
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DINGO Joe
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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2014, 01:31:56 PM »

Yes, I think it's important that we keep Canada in check.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2014, 02:00:36 PM »
« Edited: May 31, 2014, 02:02:29 PM by Simfan34 »

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TNF
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« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2014, 02:09:55 PM »

Yes, all developed first world economies are, in some fashion, imperialist powers.
Lol at the idea of the Nordic nations or Switzerland acting imperialist.

Of course, they are imperialist in the way that they handle trade relations with lesser developed economies (pushing their products into those markets and declaring that protectionism, which was responsible for the development of every first world nation is bad and evil and must be combated and these nations should privatize their economies and open up trade so that their industries can be destroyed and replaced with foreign, i.e. European/American/Japanese/Chinese ones).
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dead0man
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« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2014, 02:10:01 PM »

Simfan's argument, if it rises to that, is that we were a 150 years ago.

It really depends on how you define things.  If we were acting as by the book imperials we'd be making vassels (some with our boots on their necks, others not so much) of our conquests, not letting them boil in their own internal juices.  If we were by the book non-imperial we wouldn't be sticking our dick in quite as many places (though a nation our size has to stick it's dick in things form time to time no matter how anti-imperial it tries to be).

(I don't know why I like that phrase so much, but I bet it's not good)
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2014, 02:17:35 PM »

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Goldwater
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« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2014, 03:48:09 PM »

Much less imperial than we used to be.
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AggregateDemand
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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2014, 06:38:05 PM »

Every world power is imperialistic. Thankfully, territorial expansion is yielding to global trade.
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Anti Democrat Democrat Club
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« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2014, 06:47:42 PM »

More of a trade empire than a global empire, but yes. I thought this was well-established.
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Frodo
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« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2014, 06:56:59 PM »

I have noticed people have a very constricted definition of what an empire is, assuming it means direct administrative control over a given territory, not unlike that of the late Roman Empire.  

That's only one definition -the other is indirect domination through a web of client and allied states, supplemented by military bases spread throughout the world, some inherited from our British predecessors.  It is what one would call a hegemony.  

That's us.  
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Oldiesfreak1854
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« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2014, 09:47:47 PM »

No (sane), but it certainly has characteristics similar to many empires of old.
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TNF
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« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2014, 10:36:31 PM »


This is not true at all. The American Empire is today far more powerful and far more influential than it has ever been, even with a rising China.
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courts
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« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2014, 03:54:45 AM »

Every world power is imperialistic. Thankfully, territorial expansion is yielding to global trade.
i cringed pretty hardcore at this one
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2014, 07:28:22 AM »

Yes, all developed first world economies are, in some fashion, imperialist powers.
Lol at the idea of the Nordic nations or Switzerland acting imperialist.
protectionism, which was responsible for the development of every first world nation
Citation needed.
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TNF
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« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2014, 10:02:58 AM »

Yes, all developed first world economies are, in some fashion, imperialist powers.
Lol at the idea of the Nordic nations or Switzerland acting imperialist.
protectionism, which was responsible for the development of every first world nation
Citation needed.

Here's a good starting point, and I would also recommend Bad Samaritans by Chang as well as 23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism.
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Cassius
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« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2014, 10:24:55 AM »

Yes, all developed first world economies are, in some fashion, imperialist powers.
Lol at the idea of the Nordic nations or Switzerland acting imperialist.
protectionism, which was responsible for the development of every first world nation
Citation needed.

Here's a good starting point, and I would also recommend Bad Samaritans by Chang as well as 23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism.


Well, its certainly highly disputable that the development of the United Kingdom as an industrial power was due to protectionism (after all, the UK pursued broadly free trading policies throughout the mid and late 19th centuries and into the 20th). More to the point, whilst protectionism certainly was a factor in encouraging the development of western industrial powers throughout the 19th and into the 20th century, it could equally be argued that such development arose as a result of dirt cheap labour operating in largely unregulated markets (basically modern south-east Asia but on steroids), run by businessmen who were very lightly taxed and had considerable clout in government. Protectionism is merely one factor, and often one that actually harmed economic development, as was the case with the so-called 'Corn Laws' (which pushed up the price of food, meaning that factory owners had to pay their workers considerably more, thus to some extent retarding the development of British industry).

This is of course, economic, rather than 'social' development. But still for what its worth...
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TNF
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« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2014, 10:27:10 AM »

Well, its certainly highly disputable that the development of the United Kingdom as an industrial power was due to protectionism (after all, the UK pursued broadly free trading policies throughout the mid and late 19th centuries and into the 20th). More to the point, whilst protectionism certainly was a factor in encouraging the development of western industrial powers throughout the 19th and into the 20th century, it could equally be argued that such development arose as a result of dirt cheap labour operating in largely unregulated markets (basically modern south-east Asia but on steroids), run by businessmen who were very lightly taxed and had considerable clout in government. Protectionism is merely one factor, and often one that actually harmed economic development, as was the case with the so-called 'Corn Laws' (which pushed up the price of food, meaning that factory owners had to pay their workers considerably more, thus to some extent retarding the development of British industry).

This is of course, economic, rather than 'social' development. But still for what its worth...

From the link I posted:

Quote
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Cassius
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« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2014, 11:02:53 AM »

Well, its certainly highly disputable that the development of the United Kingdom as an industrial power was due to protectionism (after all, the UK pursued broadly free trading policies throughout the mid and late 19th centuries and into the 20th). More to the point, whilst protectionism certainly was a factor in encouraging the development of western industrial powers throughout the 19th and into the 20th century, it could equally be argued that such development arose as a result of dirt cheap labour operating in largely unregulated markets (basically modern south-east Asia but on steroids), run by businessmen who were very lightly taxed and had considerable clout in government. Protectionism is merely one factor, and often one that actually harmed economic development, as was the case with the so-called 'Corn Laws' (which pushed up the price of food, meaning that factory owners had to pay their workers considerably more, thus to some extent retarding the development of British industry).

This is of course, economic, rather than 'social' development. But still for what its worth...

From the link I posted:

Quote
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Oh, I'm not denying that the British government (well, successive English and British governments) actively helped support and develop British trade and industry. Although I would say that plenty of government interventions were either ineffective, disastrous or ran contrary to the interests of business or landowning interests. An example of this was the anti-enclosure legislation adopted by successive Tudor governments, even though enclosure was a neccessary precursor to the agricultural revolution (which helped many a landowner and farmer enormously).

More to the point, I think the problem with such views as described in the above link is that they're essentially (I can't think of a better word) praising policies that are largely antithetical to their own, left wing, views. I mean, all of the interventions described above were designed to benefit either the crown (as with the development of woolen manufacturing, which was part of broader efforts by Henry VII to swell the coffers of the state), landowners (as with the corn laws) or businessmen (as in the case of much of that 18th century trading legislation). They were not put into practice in order to create a more equitable or socially just society. Moreover, I think it can be argued that countries like Great Britain benefited heavily from being the first to undergoe the agricultural revolution and then industrialise. This granted them enormous opportunities that simply aren't available to third world countries today, as other countries have already established a strong presence in international markets, the likes of which simply did not exist in the less globalised 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2014, 11:12:16 AM »

Yes, all developed first world economies are, in some fashion, imperialist powers.
Lol at the idea of the Nordic nations or Switzerland acting imperialist.

Denmark still has colonies you know.
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TheDeadFlagBlues
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« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2014, 12:25:42 PM »

Yes, all developed first world economies are, in some fashion, imperialist powers.
Lol at the idea of the Nordic nations or Switzerland acting imperialist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_colonial_empire

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_overseas_colonies
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