Do problems with the historocity of the Bible affect your faith (or lack of it)? (user search)
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  Do problems with the historocity of the Bible affect your faith (or lack of it)? (search mode)
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Author Topic: Do problems with the historocity of the Bible affect your faith (or lack of it)?  (Read 2425 times)
True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« on: May 31, 2014, 11:40:16 PM »

I'm pretty sure most of the historical aspects of the Bible are true. I mean people thought the Hittites were fictional because they were in the Bible and they were discovered to be real, and that statue in Daniel prophecy has been 100% accurate so far.
To be fair, it appears that the Old Testament tradition conflates two separate peoples with similar names, the Semitic Hethites of Canaan and the Indo-European Hittites of Anatolia. Considering that by the time the account was fixed in its current form some centuries after both Hethites and Hittites were essentially no more, it is not surprising.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2014, 03:00:07 PM »

You can't escape that. The whole point of Christianity is that you have to accept that Jesus is your saviour. He can't just be someone who said 'a lot of interesting things' if you don't take the next step because Jesus was one of many contemporaries or came after others who said exactly the same interesting things as he did. The rest of your post in reply is curiously agnostic. I can't dispute anything else you say with regards to forgiveness or morality because that's exactly the view that I hold. As I said what Jesus said on issues of morality or simply on the best way in which to conduct yourself are not unique.

What's problematic for me is that Jesus wants more than that. Seneca in his Epistulae Morales says; 'If you want to be loved, love.' and to 'Take care not to harm others, so others won't harm you.' These are universal truths that people have always reached regardless of what belief they hold or don't. Marcus Aurelius says; 'We should not say ‘I am an Athenian’ or ‘I am a Roman’ but ‘I am a citizen of the Universe.'

Jesus says these things too, but he also says 'If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.' That's not necessary. As you say yourself, if your only reason for being moral is so that you may please authority, it's not real morality.

The problem you see only comes if one takes passages such as John 15:6 in an extremely literal way, which I grant is how fundamentalists tend to do.  But if one accepts that Jesus was a living embodiment of the Way, then what such passages indicate is that one needs to follow that Way to achieve salvation.  Passages such as Matthew 7:21-23 indicate that Christ did not come seeking homage as if he were but yet another earthly potentate.  It is indeed unfortunate that too many so called Christians call Jesus Lord of Lords yet do little to nothing about following the Way he exemplified.  Such people may call themselves Christians, yet they do not abide in Christ and they shall be cast forth.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2014, 11:00:02 PM »
« Edited: June 03, 2014, 01:15:13 AM by True Federalist »

Save that pi has never been three on the nose.

That old canard.  Here's a fairly good explanation of why what most people know on this subject is likely wrong.  http://www.purplemath.com/modules/bibleval.htm  Once one takes into account the thickness of the molten sea, one gets a description of an approximation that for the era is about as accurate than any other known from that time. (The approximation 22/7 that some infer from the dimensions of the pyramids is more accurate. yet oddly later Egyptian writings use the less accurate value of (4/3)^4, tho that may have been because it was easier to physically measure when factors of 2 and 3 were involved instead of factors of 7 and 11 as with the inferred value of pi from the pyramids.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2014, 01:14:27 AM »

I don't want near accuracy from the Living Word; "as good as any other estimate" does not cut it.

I suppose then that the Bible is as good as any other bit of sacred text.

Or more likely, the numerical value of pi is not a piece of divine knowledge given in the Bible.  The relevant passages are a description of what Hiram did when he made the molten sea and not instructions from YHWH on how to make it.  As such, to expect that the text would contain a greater precision in the value of pi than that available to craftsmen of the era is ludicrous.  Even if the instructions had been from YHWH, it still would be ludicrous for them to use a degree of precision than a human craftsman of that era could possible use.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2014, 09:17:18 PM »

Plus, I never realized the extent Canaanite mythology influenced Judaism. Especially the idea that the Abrahamic God may've started out as simply just a god from that pantheon. That's the thing I've speculated a lot about how to reconcile with that.
That's actually a fairly easy thing to reconcile.  Take the Hindu idea of their various divinities being various manifestations of the Unity and apply it to the West Semitic pantheon.  Indeed, both the visit of Elohim to Abraham before going off to smite Sodom and Gomorah and the whole tale of Balaam more sense if one assumes three semi-independent avatars of the Unity. (Especially with Balaam.) [Not only that, but the similarities we know of between Abram and Balaam are enough that I think it possible that Balaam is the Moabite version of Abraham who is later introduced into the Hebrew Bible by Israelites who don't know that.]
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