POLL re gay marriage

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

I agree with everything you've said about race baiting but I strongly disagree with the notion that his statement on slapping white people is racist. It is certainly expressing antipathy towards white people but hatred towards white people in that context is understandable. The idea of reparations is ridiculous but the general sentiment that white people are ignorant about race relations is rational and disliking them as a group, especially if you have little contact with white people outside of interactions regarding race relations or politics, for this reason is warranted and isn't racist. It's actually absurd to think that it's racist because it isn't predicated on some kind of essentialized trait or generalized behavior but rather an empirical truth.

Disliking people b/c of their race = not racist, and yet I'm a racist for god knows what reason.

This is incoherent.

[free my dawg]

Although it is losing importance because the courts have taken over the battle, it's a decent indicator of purity (like my stance on Hawaii's Senate race - my main issue is that the primary challenger coincidentally started supporting gay marriage a month after the Senator that held the seat died).

[RedSLC]

Option 2, though I see it becoming a less prominent issue with growing acceptance, especially at the rate the courts are going.

That doesn't mean that other LGBT-related issues won't still be around afterwards, though (i.e. employment-related).

[IceSpear]

Not important, because the only people I'm going to even consider voting for are the Greens or various socialist third parties, and all those groups support marriage equality, so it's never really going to ever be a determinant of how I vote.

So you wouldn't vote for Sanders or Warren if they ran as a Dem against Hillary?

[TNF]

Not important, because the only people I'm going to even consider voting for are the Greens or various socialist third parties, and all those groups support marriage equality, so it's never really going to ever be a determinant of how I vote.

So you wouldn't vote for Sanders or Warren if they ran as a Dem against Hillary?

I might consider voting for Sanders in the Democratic primary, but I wouldn't vote for Warren. If Sanders runs in 2016 I'd much rather he do so as an independent; I don't think the left will be doing itself any favors if it runs a candidate within the Democratic primaries and gets spanked, and then has to support the party nominee for President in the general election.

[IceSpear]

Not important, because the only people I'm going to even consider voting for are the Greens or various socialist third parties, and all those groups support marriage equality, so it's never really going to ever be a determinant of how I vote.

So you wouldn't vote for Sanders or Warren if they ran as a Dem against Hillary?

I might consider voting for Sanders in the Democratic primary, but I wouldn't vote for Warren. If Sanders runs in 2016 I'd much rather he do so as an independent; I don't think the left will be doing itself any favors if it runs a candidate within the Democratic primaries and gets spanked, and then has to support the party nominee for President in the general election.

I believe he said he'd prefer to run as a Democrat so he wouldn't become a Nader. And why wouldn't you vote for Warren?

Oh, and I forgot to answer the thread question: very important (support) (normal)

[TNF]

Not important, because the only people I'm going to even consider voting for are the Greens or various socialist third parties, and all those groups support marriage equality, so it's never really going to ever be a determinant of how I vote.

So you wouldn't vote for Sanders or Warren if they ran as a Dem against Hillary?

I might consider voting for Sanders in the Democratic primary, but I wouldn't vote for Warren. If Sanders runs in 2016 I'd much rather he do so as an independent; I don't think the left will be doing itself any favors if it runs a candidate within the Democratic primaries and gets spanked, and then has to support the party nominee for President in the general election.

I believe he said he'd prefer to run as a Democrat so he wouldn't become a Nader. And why wouldn't you vote for Warren?

Oh, and I forgot to answer the thread question: very important (support) (normal)

I have fairly profound disagreements with Warren on foreign policy, especially when it comes to Iran, which she's voiced support for isolating in the past.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I agree with everything you've said about race baiting but I strongly disagree with the notion that his statement on slapping white people is racist. It is certainly expressing antipathy towards white people but hatred towards white people in that context is understandable. The idea of reparations is ridiculous but the general sentiment that white people are ignorant about race relations is rational and disliking them as a group, especially if you have little contact with white people outside of interactions regarding race relations or politics, for this reason is warranted and isn't racist. It's actually absurd to think that it's racist because it isn't predicated on some kind of essentialized trait or generalized behavior but rather an empirical truth.

Disliking people b/c of their race = not racist, and yet I'm a racist for god knows what reason.

This is incoherent.

Yes, your standard of defining who or what is racist is incoherent if I qualify but actually hating an entire race of people doesn't.  I don't know how you can say that disliking an entire race of people is warranted and claim that it isn't based on "an essentialized trait or generalized behavior." 

[Simfan34]

No impact on my vote whatsoever whether they support gay marriage or not.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

I agree with everything you've said about race baiting but I strongly disagree with the notion that his statement on slapping white people is racist. It is certainly expressing antipathy towards white people but hatred towards white people in that context is understandable. The idea of reparations is ridiculous but the general sentiment that white people are ignorant about race relations is rational and disliking them as a group, especially if you have little contact with white people outside of interactions regarding race relations or politics, for this reason is warranted and isn't racist. It's actually absurd to think that it's racist because it isn't predicated on some kind of essentialized trait or generalized behavior but rather an empirical truth.

Disliking people b/c of their race = not racist, and yet I'm a racist for god knows what reason.

This is incoherent.

Yes, your standard of defining who or what is racist is incoherent if I qualify but actually hating an entire race of people doesn't.  I don't know how you can say that disliking an entire race of people is warranted and claim that it isn't based on "an essentialized trait or generalized behavior." 

A non-negligible number of Black Americans dislike white people because some of their family members have been killed at the hands of white supremacists, been barred from eating at restaurants, been called degrading names, been racially profiled and denied their civil rights. If that doesn't warrant some degree of resentment, I don't know what does.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I agree with everything you've said about race baiting but I strongly disagree with the notion that his statement on slapping white people is racist. It is certainly expressing antipathy towards white people but hatred towards white people in that context is understandable. The idea of reparations is ridiculous but the general sentiment that white people are ignorant about race relations is rational and disliking them as a group, especially if you have little contact with white people outside of interactions regarding race relations or politics, for this reason is warranted and isn't racist. It's actually absurd to think that it's racist because it isn't predicated on some kind of essentialized trait or generalized behavior but rather an empirical truth.

Disliking people b/c of their race = not racist, and yet I'm a racist for god knows what reason.

This is incoherent.

Yes, your standard of defining who or what is racist is incoherent if I qualify but actually hating an entire race of people doesn't.  I don't know how you can say that disliking an entire race of people is warranted and claim that it isn't based on "an essentialized trait or generalized behavior." 

A non-negligible number of Black Americans dislike white people because some of their family members have been killed at the hands of white supremacists, been barred from eating at restaurants, been called degrading names, been racially profiled and denied their civil rights. If that doesn't warrant some degree of resentment, I don't know what does.

I can certainly see how it is understandable, but that doesn't mean it is warranted, and it is still racism.  It is absolutely based on a generalization against a group of people, and a group of people that are defined as having their essence characterized by their race. 

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

I agree with everything you've said about race baiting but I strongly disagree with the notion that his statement on slapping white people is racist. It is certainly expressing antipathy towards white people but hatred towards white people in that context is understandable. The idea of reparations is ridiculous but the general sentiment that white people are ignorant about race relations is rational and disliking them as a group, especially if you have little contact with white people outside of interactions regarding race relations or politics, for this reason is warranted and isn't racist. It's actually absurd to think that it's racist because it isn't predicated on some kind of essentialized trait or generalized behavior but rather an empirical truth.

Disliking people b/c of their race = not racist, and yet I'm a racist for god knows what reason.

This is incoherent.

Yes, your standard of defining who or what is racist is incoherent if I qualify but actually hating an entire race of people doesn't.  I don't know how you can say that disliking an entire race of people is warranted and claim that it isn't based on "an essentialized trait or generalized behavior." 

A non-negligible number of Black Americans dislike white people because some of their family members have been killed at the hands of white supremacists, been barred from eating at restaurants, been called degrading names, been racially profiled and denied their civil rights. If that doesn't warrant some degree of resentment, I don't know what does.

I can certainly see how it is understandable, but that doesn't mean it is warranted, and it is still racism.  It is absolutely based on a generalization against a group of people, and a group of people that are defined as having their essence characterized by their race. 

White Americans are responsible for the existence of racism. This is a fact, not a generalization. White Americans have significant advantages due to their perceived race. This is not a character trait, this is a reality. If you're annoyed by this state of affairs and blame white America for continuing to support a system of racial caste that upholds racial inequity, you're not a racist. White Americans are responsible for racism and deserve the blame and aspersions of those that they've oppressed unless they make significant efforts to change the status quo. 

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

White Americans are responsible for the existence of racism. This is a fact, not a generalization. White Americans have significant advantages due to their perceived race. This is not a character trait, this is a reality. If you're annoyed by this state of affairs and blame white America for continuing to support a system of racial caste that upholds racial inequity, you're not a racist. White Americans are responsible for racism and deserve the blame and aspersions of those that they've oppressed unless they make significant efforts to change the status quo. 

I don't know what definition of "generalization" you could be using here.
Speaking in terms of "White Americans" as acting or being in a particular way is itself a generalization based on race, and extending a concept of race to impute collective guilt is to treat race as a reified object constitutive of a person's most essential being. 

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

I agree with everything you've said about race baiting but I strongly disagree with the notion that his statement on slapping white people is racist. It is certainly expressing antipathy towards white people but hatred towards white people in that context is understandable. The idea of reparations is ridiculous but the general sentiment that white people are ignorant about race relations is rational and disliking them as a group, especially if you have little contact with white people outside of interactions regarding race relations or politics, for this reason is warranted and isn't racist. It's actually absurd to think that it's racist because it isn't predicated on some kind of essentialized trait or generalized behavior but rather an empirical truth.

Disliking people b/c of their race = not racist, and yet I'm a racist for god knows what reason.

This is incoherent.

Yes, your standard of defining who or what is racist is incoherent if I qualify but actually hating an entire race of people doesn't.  I don't know how you can say that disliking an entire race of people is warranted and claim that it isn't based on "an essentialized trait or generalized behavior." 

A non-negligible number of Black Americans dislike white people because some of their family members have been killed at the hands of white supremacists, been barred from eating at restaurants, been called degrading names, been racially profiled and denied their civil rights. If that doesn't warrant some degree of resentment, I don't know what does.

I can certainly see how it is understandable, but that doesn't mean it is warranted, and it is still racism.  It is absolutely based on a generalization against a group of people, and a group of people that are defined as having their essence characterized by their race. 

White Americans are responsible for the existence of racism. This is a fact, not a generalization. White Americans have significant advantages due to their perceived race. This is not a character trait, this is a reality. If you're annoyed by this state of affairs and blame white America for continuing to support a system of racial caste that upholds racial inequity, you're not a racist. White Americans are responsible for racism and deserve the blame and aspersions of those that they've oppressed unless they make significant efforts to change the status quo. 

WTF?

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

White Americans are responsible for the existence of racism. This is a fact, not a generalization. White Americans have significant advantages due to their perceived race. This is not a character trait, this is a reality. If you're annoyed by this state of affairs and blame white America for continuing to support a system of racial caste that upholds racial inequity, you're not a racist. White Americans are responsible for racism and deserve the blame and aspersions of those that they've oppressed unless they make significant efforts to change the status quo.  

I don't know what definition of "generalization" you could be using here.
Speaking in terms of "White Americans" as acting or being in a particular way is itself a generalization based on race, and extending a concept of race to impute collective guilt is to treat race as a reified object constitutive of a person's most essential being.  

Obviously race is not a reified object constitutive of a person's most essential being. Racism is a socially constructed reality that is perpetuated by white Americans, who are responsible for the lionshare of discrimination against African-Americans. Notice I am not saying that all white people are responsible but that white people are responsible. There's a distinct difference here.

My argument is actually centered on the fact that race is not essential and that it's socially constructed, which is an argument that implies that white America is responsible for racism. As a group, they're ignorant of the present racism that exists all around them and the historic racism responsible for the continued indigence of millions of African-Americans, which they believe is the fault of African-Americans.











Because Black resentment against white Americans is predicated upon collective failure, it is resentment that is amenable to the efforts of individual white Americans who prove that they are responsible for collective injustice and amenable to the potential efforts of the collective. In this sense, anti-White resentment is not a kind of a racism.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

I agree with everything you've said about race baiting but I strongly disagree with the notion that his statement on slapping white people is racist. It is certainly expressing antipathy towards white people but hatred towards white people in that context is understandable. The idea of reparations is ridiculous but the general sentiment that white people are ignorant about race relations is rational and disliking them as a group, especially if you have little contact with white people outside of interactions regarding race relations or politics, for this reason is warranted and isn't racist. It's actually absurd to think that it's racist because it isn't predicated on some kind of essentialized trait or generalized behavior but rather an empirical truth.

Disliking people b/c of their race = not racist, and yet I'm a racist for god knows what reason.

This is incoherent.

Yes, your standard of defining who or what is racist is incoherent if I qualify but actually hating an entire race of people doesn't.  I don't know how you can say that disliking an entire race of people is warranted and claim that it isn't based on "an essentialized trait or generalized behavior." 

A non-negligible number of Black Americans dislike white people because some of their family members have been killed at the hands of white supremacists, been barred from eating at restaurants, been called degrading names, been racially profiled and denied their civil rights. If that doesn't warrant some degree of resentment, I don't know what does.

I can certainly see how it is understandable, but that doesn't mean it is warranted, and it is still racism.  It is absolutely based on a generalization against a group of people, and a group of people that are defined as having their essence characterized by their race. 

White Americans are responsible for the existence of racism. This is a fact, not a generalization. White Americans have significant advantages due to their perceived race. This is not a character trait, this is a reality. If you're annoyed by this state of affairs and blame white America for continuing to support a system of racial caste that upholds racial inequity, you're not a racist. White Americans are responsible for racism and deserve the blame and aspersions of those that they've oppressed unless they make significant efforts to change the status quo. 

WTF?

Are you honestly going to dispute this? Unless you think that African-Americans are responsible for the continued existence of racism because of "hip-hop" culture or crime or laziness or whatever, this is absolutely true.

[Lief 🗽]

DFB is doing the lord's work in this thread.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Notice I am not saying that all white people are responsible but that white people are responsible. There's a distinct difference here.

As long as this distinction is constantly remembered I think it's sort of impossible to disagree much. I'm not even really sure what the issue is with what DFB is saying, here.

[TNF]

DFB is doing the lord's work in this thread.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Notice I am not saying that all white people are responsible but that white people are responsible. There's a distinct difference here.

As long as this distinction is constantly remembered I think it's sort of impossible to disagree much. I'm not even really sure what the issue is with what DFB is saying, here.

The claim that hating a race of people is not racist is bound to be controversial.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Sorry, what is this thread about now...?

As for the question, I support marriage equality and would say it somewhat matters for who I'd support in the States, particularly in the Republican primaries. I mean, Mitt Romney and Rick Santorum were both against gay marriage, but it's pretty obvious who the bigger bigot was on this issue (hint, not Mitt Romney). If the conservative candidate is a real culture warrior, it's points against them, I think.

[Cassius]

I agree with everything you've said about race baiting but I strongly disagree with the notion that his statement on slapping white people is racist. It is certainly expressing antipathy towards white people but hatred towards white people in that context is understandable. The idea of reparations is ridiculous but the general sentiment that white people are ignorant about race relations is rational and disliking them as a group, especially if you have little contact with white people outside of interactions regarding race relations or politics, for this reason is warranted and isn't racist. It's actually absurd to think that it's racist because it isn't predicated on some kind of essentialized trait or generalized behavior but rather an empirical truth.

Disliking people b/c of their race = not racist, and yet I'm a racist for god knows what reason.

This is incoherent.

Yes, your standard of defining who or what is racist is incoherent if I qualify but actually hating an entire race of people doesn't.  I don't know how you can say that disliking an entire race of people is warranted and claim that it isn't based on "an essentialized trait or generalized behavior." 

A non-negligible number of Black Americans dislike white people because some of their family members have been killed at the hands of white supremacists, been barred from eating at restaurants, been called degrading names, been racially profiled and denied their civil rights. If that doesn't warrant some degree of resentment, I don't know what does.

I can certainly see how it is understandable, but that doesn't mean it is warranted, and it is still racism.  It is absolutely based on a generalization against a group of people, and a group of people that are defined as having their essence characterized by their race. 

White Americans are responsible for the existence of racism. This is a fact, not a generalization. White Americans have significant advantages due to their perceived race. This is not a character trait, this is a reality. If you're annoyed by this state of affairs and blame white America for continuing to support a system of racial caste that upholds racial inequity, you're not a racist. White Americans are responsible for racism and deserve the blame and aspersions of those that they've oppressed unless they make significant efforts to change the status quo. 

Which they are unlikely to ever do unless the people advocating 'significant efforts to change the status quo' adopt a much more emollient and conciliatory approach, instead of simply demanding that change occur as some kind of a moral imperative whilst blanketly condemning their opponents as racists (or as 'Uncle Tom's). People don't respond to that kind of thing, especially when they stand to potentially lose from it.

[Simfan34]

Sorry, what is this thread about now...?

How white people are the scum of the earth.

[Never]

I agree with everything you've said about race baiting but I strongly disagree with the notion that his statement on slapping white people is racist. It is certainly expressing antipathy towards white people but hatred towards white people in that context is understandable. The idea of reparations is ridiculous but the general sentiment that white people are ignorant about race relations is rational and disliking them as a group, especially if you have little contact with white people outside of interactions regarding race relations or politics, for this reason is warranted and isn't racist. It's actually absurd to think that it's racist because it isn't predicated on some kind of essentialized trait or generalized behavior but rather an empirical truth.

Disliking people b/c of their race = not racist, and yet I'm a racist for god knows what reason.

This is incoherent.

Yes, your standard of defining who or what is racist is incoherent if I qualify but actually hating an entire race of people doesn't.  I don't know how you can say that disliking an entire race of people is warranted and claim that it isn't based on "an essentialized trait or generalized behavior." 

A non-negligible number of Black Americans dislike white people because some of their family members have been killed at the hands of white supremacists, been barred from eating at restaurants, been called degrading names, been racially profiled and denied their civil rights. If that doesn't warrant some degree of resentment, I don't know what does.

I can certainly see how it is understandable, but that doesn't mean it is warranted, and it is still racism.  It is absolutely based on a generalization against a group of people, and a group of people that are defined as having their essence characterized by their race. 

White Americans are responsible for the existence of racism. This is a fact, not a generalization. White Americans have significant advantages due to their perceived race. This is not a character trait, this is a reality. If you're annoyed by this state of affairs and blame white America for continuing to support a system of racial caste that upholds racial inequity, you're not a racist. White Americans are responsible for racism and deserve the blame and aspersions of those that they've oppressed unless they make significant efforts to change the status quo. 

WTF?

Are you honestly going to dispute this? Unless you think that African-Americans are responsible for the continued existence of racism because of "hip-hop" culture or crime or laziness or whatever, this is absolutely true.

There are probably plenty of black racists just like there are white racists, and hip-hop culture probably contributes to black racism. Of course, every race has lazy people.

Some black people are partly responsible for the continued existence of racism. We can't ignore that. No ethnic group is perfect.

But back to the originial question, I oppose same-sex marriage, and that slightly impacts my support of candidates.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

I agree with everything you've said about race baiting but I strongly disagree with the notion that his statement on slapping white people is racist. It is certainly expressing antipathy towards white people but hatred towards white people in that context is understandable. The idea of reparations is ridiculous but the general sentiment that white people are ignorant about race relations is rational and disliking them as a group, especially if you have little contact with white people outside of interactions regarding race relations or politics, for this reason is warranted and isn't racist. It's actually absurd to think that it's racist because it isn't predicated on some kind of essentialized trait or generalized behavior but rather an empirical truth.

Disliking people b/c of their race = not racist, and yet I'm a racist for god knows what reason.

This is incoherent.

Yes, your standard of defining who or what is racist is incoherent if I qualify but actually hating an entire race of people doesn't.  I don't know how you can say that disliking an entire race of people is warranted and claim that it isn't based on "an essentialized trait or generalized behavior." 

A non-negligible number of Black Americans dislike white people because some of their family members have been killed at the hands of white supremacists, been barred from eating at restaurants, been called degrading names, been racially profiled and denied their civil rights. If that doesn't warrant some degree of resentment, I don't know what does.

I can certainly see how it is understandable, but that doesn't mean it is warranted, and it is still racism.  It is absolutely based on a generalization against a group of people, and a group of people that are defined as having their essence characterized by their race. 

White Americans are responsible for the existence of racism. This is a fact, not a generalization. White Americans have significant advantages due to their perceived race. This is not a character trait, this is a reality. If you're annoyed by this state of affairs and blame white America for continuing to support a system of racial caste that upholds racial inequity, you're not a racist. White Americans are responsible for racism and deserve the blame and aspersions of those that they've oppressed unless they make significant efforts to change the status quo. 

WTF?

Are you honestly going to dispute this? Unless you think that African-Americans are responsible for the continued existence of racism because of "hip-hop" culture or crime or laziness or whatever, this is absolutely true.

Yes, I honestly am going to dispute this.

Wanna know why? Because white people didn't "invent" racism. Racism can come from anyone of any race. People with different features have discriminated against each other across the world since I don't even know when. Racism has existed in many forms in many places before white people showed up. You don't need white people for racism to exist. Yeah, historically we focus very heavily on whites being racist, but that doesn't mean they created it, nor are they solely responsible for perpetuating it. That's not a fact.

Anyways, this is about gay marriage, not how evil white people are. Go create a new thread or something.

Your ignorance is showing. Race is a modern concept that emerged out of colonialism and became solidified with Darwinism. It was not present in classical civilizations or medieval principalities. The Romans, Persians and Greeks possessed slaves of all phenotypes. Discrimination that appears on first glance to be similar to racism existed: the caste system in India, the destruction of indigenous peoples across Asia, Arab enslavement of Blacks. Yet none of these forms of oppression can be described as racist because they were justified on grounds outside of race.

The Japanese appropriated the concept of race as they modernized just as they appropriated liberalism. It was a foreign idea.

w/e, gay marriage is boring.