Taiwanese independence

[politicus]

Should Taiwan be an independent country and drop the pretense of being the Republic of China?

Personally I think it would be better for them. Even if the mainland got a less horrible political system they should stay out. Like Austria is better of not being part of Germany, why shouldnt Taiwan remain its own country given that it has had a different history than the mainland and developed different ways of doing things.

[Wake Me Up When The Hard Border Ends]

Definitely!

[Donerail]

They should be, in an ideal world. In our world, I think the PRC would respond less than pleasantly.

[TNF]

No (not in favor of provoking WW3)

[Gass3268]

No (not in favor of provoking WW3)

[Peter the Lefty]

Yes, though I'd be careful on how they'd go about it. 

[H. Ross Peron]

No (not in favor of provoking WW3)

This and I'd prefer that Taiwan reunite with China once the latter democratizes. It would be amusing to see a democratic China readopt the Kuomintang flag and the style "Republic of China".

[I Will Not Be Wrong]

Yes.

[windjammer]

Why independence?
They don't want to merge with China? (at least the Kuomitang party)

[politicallefty]

I do think Taiwan should be and recognized as an independent country. If it would like to seek unification with a democratic mainland China in the future, they could and should retain that option. Unfortunately, as much as I'd like to see it, democratization of the PRC doesn't seem to be very likely in the near future.

[ElectionsGuy]

Of course.

[Never]

Yes, though I'd be careful on how they'd go about it. 

I agree, but it seems that if, God forbid, America ends up in a war with China, the U.S. should immediately recognize Taiwan as an independent nation.

[Orser67]

Imo, Taiwan should definitely be a fully sovereign country, but the risk of war is definitely not worth it. Perhaps one day Chinese nationalism will recede to less absurd levels (granted, their claim on Taiwan is stronger than other claims that they press).

[jaichind]

For me it is obviously a big no since this is one more my core issues that I am for Chinese reunification and oppose to Taiwan Independence.

Of course this would be a good time to discuss various variations of Unification and Independence and how they evolved over the years.  There are four basic clusters of view on this.  I have family members and family friends back on Taiwan Province of ROC that is represented in all four groups.  They are Right Unification, Left Unification, Right Independence and Left Independence.   Of course the nature of each position has evolved over the last few decades

Right Unification:  This is my position.  The core of this position is anti-Communism/Socialism and the preservation of Chinese traditionalism/nationalism based on the Republican Period of 1911-1949 and/or free market capitalism.  The people of this position was actually against reunification before the 1980s and some, like myself, considered supporting Taiwan Independence or at least Two China as a way to preserve the social system of Taiwan Province under the KMT of the 1950s-1980s as the PRC was seen as devil incarnate and incapable of changing.  This was especially true of those on this view that did not see any hope of defeating the PRC in a military sense.  People of this view before the 1980s actually saw those which supported Left Unification as CCP fifth columnists and both Right Independence and Left Independence as implicit and not explicit agents of the CCP as a part of a greater CCP plot to undermine the KMT regime on Taiwan Province.  This group made no qualms about using alleged ties to the CCP as a way to undermine all three other rival positions.   As the 1980s and 1990s came around, and this group saw that the CCP led PRC actually changing into a 1950s KMT clone and at the same time promoting Chinese traditionalism of the Republican era if not before that and seeing their political rivals which supported Right Independence and Left Independence gaining support on Taiwan Province, the most rabid anti-Communists did a 180 degree turn and became rapid collaborators of the CCP and strong supporters of unification.  Some of them support reunification based on the PRC terms (usually those capitalist class) while some like me who are more focused Chinese nationalism insist on PRC making structural changes (new name for a reunited China like Federal Republic of China as well as giving up formally Communism as the ruling ideology) as a condition for unification.  Starting from the 1990s Right Unification views began to merge with Left Unification views into one united front.

Left Unification: This position is for socialist idealists that to different degrees identified with the cause of the Chinese Revolution beyond the Republican stage and into the Socialist and to some extent Communist stage.  Many are actually Chinese nationalists as well but saw Chinese nationalism in term of social reform as the way to save the Chinese.  They were opposed to the KMT regime and often were jailed for their views.  Their push for social reform and sympathy for the CCP was seen as a threat.  While many did see through the hypocrisy of the egalitarianism of the PRC many still support unification to work on the common vision of the Socialist reform which the PRC/CCP did represent.  Some supported unification on PRC terms while others were for unification with a reformed PRC to the true vision of social democracy.  Left Unification was often in league with Left Independence in the 1950s to 1980s period.  Both were opposed to the KMT social and economic system and those supporting Left Independence were actually flexible on their position of Independence during this period which made collaboration between Left Unification and Left Independence possible. As the PRC/CCP changed in the 1980s to a right wing authoritarian capitalist regime, some in Left Unification drifted toward Left Independence while others who supported socialism as a tool for Chinese national revival  took pride in the economic successes of the new PRC post economic reform and felt that this current PRC is the true final state of the goals of the Socialist revolution in terms of national revival.  This bloc continued their support for unification despite their left wing roots and the clear right wing nature of the PRC regime

Right Independence:  This group is alone in rejecting the Chinese identity in perusing Taiwan Independence.  There is several variation of this.  One which uses to be large bloc of Right Independence but now tiny is a bloc that rejects the social reforms of Republican China and harks to the social norms of pre-Republican China.  For them what the KMT represents which is variation of Republican China modernism is an anathema let alone the CCP.   For this group the Chinese identity is dead which is destroyed by the barbarians of the KMT and CCP.  A new Taiwanese identify must be formed that actually keeps the pre-Republican Chinese Han traditions and a new Taiwan state formed.  This view was dominated with rural elites on Taiwan Province in the 1950s that resisted the KMT while other rural elites collaborated with the KMT.  This view is quite tiny today.   Another variation would be the pro-Japanese variant.  For this group the Chinese identity was a disaster and a new identify be found with Japan as a model.  Where possible this variant ties to tie Taiwan to Japan and Taiwan Independence might actually lead to union with Japan.  This view has strong support among certain elites on Taiwan Province but not particularly popular.  There is pro-American variation with swaps out Japan with USA.  This is more popular at an implicit level and is mostly about recreating a new Taiwan identity using Western civic democratic virtue as the basis of this new ethnic formation.  The last variant pretty much denies that from a racial point of view that Taiwanese are Chinese at all.  This group which is tiny wants to change the written language away from Chinese to some phonic version of the MinNan dialect.  This is mostly non-workable and not practical and flies in the face of scientific evidence.   Right Independence is not that popular as to out right away people on Taiwan are not Chinese from an ethnic point view is not viewed as realistic but does enjoy support at some elite levels.   Because the elite nature of Right Independence, this group actually mostly avoided persecution of the KMT regime during the 1950s to 1980s period as the KMT tried to co-op this group to serve its own political needs.  

Left Independence:  This group does believe in the Chinese identity but felt that other values such as Social Democracy should override these values.  Because both values exist at the same time for this group, dependence how they view the PRC regime, they could be open to unification or a Two China solution versus outright independence.  Left Independence is merely those who were for Left Unification but were disillusioned by the PRC.  There are some which are turned off by the hypocrisy of the PRC during the 1950s to 1980s in terms of betraying the democratic part of the ideals of the Chinese revolution.  Others are more alarmed by the swing of the PRC toward a cut-throat capitalist system as well as its regression on various parameters of social justice (like gender roles and gender equity.)   This bloc of views is the largest of all of the four views, especially for the youth, and is quite changeable depending on the evolution of the PRC.  As those on Taiwan Province age and deal with the real world of economics some do drift from this position to timid Right Unification (at least will be consider unification) as such a position will benefit them from an economic point of view.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Left Unification doesn't mean you're a fan of the PRC. If I was a Taiwanese politician, I would criticize the PRC all the time, but would never call for Taiwanese Independence, since that's just severely pissing off the PRC for no reason.

[jaichind]

Sorry to hijack this thread.  I guess I will also give some representative figures from each of the 4 groups (Left Unification, Right Unification, Left Independence, and Right Independence), that way people can pick which one of these groups makes sense to them but looking at it from the Taiwan Province point of view.

Left Unification

Li Ao 李敖

Born on mainland China but moved to Taiwan Province in 1949 during the Chinese civil war.  As a historian and political commentator he was an early advocate of Social Democracy as a way to revive China and perennial opponent of the KMT style of politics.  He also support the ideals of the CCP revolution and strongely supported Unification.  We as arrested in the 1960s by the KMT regime for the crime of ... "Supporting Taiwan Independence" which is quite ironic.  What took place was that he supported his fellow Left Independence opponents of the KMT on the ground of common front against the KMT and for free speech ideals.  Li today is currently a strong supporter of the PRC and the PRC economic accomplishments and is for unification on PRC terms.  He seems to whitewash the fact that these accomplishments are achieved by betraying those social democratic ideals that led him to back the CCP in the first place.    

陳映真 Chen Yin-Tsen

Famous play-write and author and strong supporter of the social democratic ideas of the CCP revolution.  Also a strong supporter of Taiwan regional cultural identity but only in the context of Greater Chinese nationalism.  Long time opponent of the KMT and supporter of Chinese Unification.  See by Right Unification bloc as a CCP agent and was arrested in the late 1970s along with other Left Independence activists by the KMT regime.  Strong supporter of Chinese reunification on PRC terms.

李登輝 Lee Teng-hui (1946-1950)

Former ROC President and KMT Chairman.  Lee was influenced by Marxism and Socialist ideals when he studied in Japan before 1945.  After Taiwan Province was returned to ROC, Lee joined the underground CCP and worked for the complete victory of the CCP over all of China including Taiwan Province.

[jaichind]

Right Unification

郝柏村 Hau Pei-tsun
 
Former head of ROC armed forces and ROC Premier.  Hau joined the ROC armed forces, fought against the CCP on Mainland China and retreated to Taiwan Province in 1949.  He was a strong opponent of CCP and the ideals of Communism/Socialism based on his support for Chinese traditional social norms and Chinese nationalism.  He was seen by the CCP during the 1950s-1980s as representative of the Fascist Right and their main ideological opponent.  As the PRC changed the relationship between the CCP and Hau changed toward a more guarded tactical alliance as the idealogical differences faded throughout the 1990s.  Hau broke with President and KMT Chairman Lee Teng-hui over his suspicions that Lee was a crypto-Taiwan Independence backer.  Today he is for Unification only on what he feels is ROC terms and not PRC terms and while he praise the CCP for their new found support of Chinese nationalism he still attacks the CCP when he feel they distort Chinese history to serve their interests such as the nature of the KMT and CCP role in the war against Japan 1931-1945.

王永慶 (Wang Yung-ching)
 
A rages to riches legend that became a tycoon based on the petrochemical industry.  He and his family are representative of big capital.  Wang has a moderate sense of Chinese nationalism and was not very political during the 1950s to 1980s period other than to support the KMT regime in their capitalist development efforts.  For Wang during this period, keeping the CCP at bay is critical to protect his business empire.  As the PRC changed to be more capitalist friendly in the 1980s and 1990s, he expanded his business empire to PRC and as a result became much closer to CCP.  He advocated breaking down economic barriers between ROC and PRC and rediscovered his Chinese nationalist roots.  He advocated for eventual unification based on common economic interests based on political compromise between the two sides.  All this of course could only benefit his business interests and other interests of big capital on Taiwan Province.  

李登輝 Lee Teng-hui (1950-1993)

Former ROC President and KMT Chairman. Lee was arrested by the KMT for being a CCP agent.  Lee then turned in his CCP comrads and threw in his lot with the KMT.  During this time Lee became a devout Christian and advocated for a Western Rightist fusion with Chinese nationalism as a way to combat the PRC threat.  He also advocated for Taiwan regional identifies within the context of Chinese nationalism which he saw as a way to keep the CCP at bay.  He rose in the ranks of the KMT and was eventually made Vice Preisdent of ROC and then President.  He beat out other KMT rivals by actually being more of a hardliner in his opposition to Taiwan Independence claiming they are traitors of the Chinese.  He advocated Unification based on Western Modernist and Chinese nationalist ideals and demanded the PRC make adjustments to make such Unification talks possible.  To this end as ROC President he created the "Chinese Unification Council" with the goal that this body pushed his line on a negotiated unification deal with PRC.

[jaichind]

Left Independence

施明德 (Shih Ming-teh)

Long-time socialist activist and Taiwan Independence supporter.  Core values based on social democracy and opposition to authoritarianism.  Supported Independence as Shih saw both the KMT and CCP as two sides of the same coin of authoritarianism.  Tried to trigger a armed revolt for Taiwan Independence in the 1960s and was put in jail.  Was released and rearrests for anti-KMT activities.  As the DPP came to power in ROC Shih broke with DPP and started to ally himself with Left Unification elements now that KMT was defeated.  While Shih still holds to Left Independence views he now is willing to consider alternative compromise arrangements such is a loose confederation with PRC.  Main concern for Shih is that any arrangement with PRC does not destroy the social democratic accomplishments of the ROC.

陳為廷 (Chen Wai-Ting)

Student activist of the just concluded Sunflower Student movement.  The current ROC KMT regime negotiated a free trade agreement with the PRC and Chen worked to block its passage mostly on concerns that greater economic integration with the PRC will bring the cut-throat capitalism and social regression of the PRC to Taiwan Province leading to Unification.  Chen is not necessary against Unification per say but is for Independence to protect the social democratic gains of the last few decades.  

李登輝 Lee Teng-hui (1993-2001)

Former ROC President and KMT Chairman.  As the PRC shifted to the right on economic policy Lee focused on the social democracy as a core value and shifted to a more anti-Unification and timid Independence stance.  He is still for Chinese nationalist identity but felt that Social Democracy on Taiwan Province had to be protected from the growing economic might of the PRC.  Lee felt also that economic integration with the PRC was dangerous as it threatened democracy.  Lee wanted to build an new Chinese social democratic model on ROC and at this stage was more of a Two China advocate than the Taiwan Independence advocate.    He wanted this Chinese social democratic state to be a model for all Chinese in the world and painted the authoritarian capitalist cut-throat PRC as the enemy of greater Chinese progress.

[jaichind]

Right Independence

辜寬敏 (Gu Quan-Min)
 
Scion of a large business empire on Taiwan Province. Gu is the son of prominent pro-Japanese politician/businessman during the Japanese occupation era and brother of a prominent KMT Right Unification politician.  But Gu went his own way from his brother and advocated that the Taiwanese should identify with Japan and form a new Taiwanese state with pro-Japan identities and throw off the Chinese identity completely.  Gu actually has fairly conservative views on social relations and especially in the issue of gender equity and role of homosexuals in society.  He is for a socially conservative free market Taiwanese state based on affinity to Japan.  He has held this view consistently since the 1950s although due to pressure to keep his business interests there was a period in the 1960s to 1980s Gu was politically inactive as part of a deal with KMT.

蔣為文 (Jiang Wei-Wen)

Jiang is an advocate that from a racial point of view the Taiwanese are not ethically Chinese and instead is made up of Taiwanese Aborigines plus some Han Chinese, Dutch, Japanese, and Spanish blood.  Jiang wants to remake Taiwan in the image of a non-Chinese state and rejects the Chinese language as a tool of Chinese cultural oppression.  Jiang advocates the use of a phonic version of the MinNan dialect [example 「Tâi-oân chok-ka ài iōng Tâi-oân-gí chhòng-chok」] to replace the Chinese language.  This is not that far fetched as Vietnam pretty much went through the same process where most of Vietnamese used to be written in a Siniform (Chinese-like) script but switched to a phonetic form as a way to break from Chinese cultural domination.  Whether such a plan by Jiang is economically viable is another story.  One way or another this approach of Taiwan Independence by the way of a complete cultural and racial break from the Chinese is another variation of Taiwan Independence.  This view often collides with the Left Independence supporters many of whom still holds some moderate Chinese identify views at least on the cultural level.

You guessed it
李登輝 Lee Teng-hui (1927-1945) and (2001-?)

Former ROC President and KMT Chairman.  Before the return of Taiwan Province to ROC Lee lived under Japanese occupied Taiwan Province.  Lee strongly identified with Japan and saw himself as Japanese and adopted a Japanese surname.  In the context of today such views would count as Right Independence with a Japanese tilt.  
Fast forward to 2000, after Lee stepped down as President of ROC and KMT chairman he had a falling out with KMT and created TSU.  TSU back in the early 2000s was mostly a Far Right Taiwan Independence party that sought to create a new Taiwan identity based on the 400 years of historical experience on Taiwan itself.  Lee started to deny that he is Chinese and insisted that the 400 years of Taiwanese living on Taiwan Province plus the cultural influences of Western Modernism created a new nation and new people which formed the basis of an Independent Taiwan state.  Many in TSU holds very conservative social views which often puts them at odds with Left Independence supporters who hold more "progressive" views on social issues.

[Simfan34]

So Lee Teng-Hui is all over the place?

Personally I support reunification... under the ROC. The point the right-unification side makes, that the ideology of the CCP today is virtually indistinguishable from that of the KMT c. 1950, 60, or even 70, is apt.

I mean, in 1946? or so the KMT was conducting raids on Shanghai businesses they accused of being "bourgeois profiteers". In a few decades they were promoting nationalist authoritarian developmentalism, and while they were obviously boasting of their anti-communist credentials, whereas the CCP boasts of it's legacy of liberation in the Civil War, that's nothing the KMT didn't like to remind people about their doing in the Xinhai Revolution.