When does a region have the right to declare independence?

[retromike22]

Original title: What's bad about letting Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, divide up into separate states?

I've always thought that Iraq, Afghanistan, and assorted Middle East and African countries are unnatural because their borders were drawn by the UK and French (and others) without regard to ethnic or language regions. A lot of ethnic groups are divided between two countries and many countries have ethnic groups that historically have been separate.

I don't mean to sound like such a regional separatist. For example, I believe that Scotland and Catalonia should remain in the UK and in Spain respectively. Why? Because:

1. Both regions have been part of the greater state for centuries.
2. More people in each region use the national language (English and Spanish) more than their regional language (Scottish Gaelic and Catalan).

Because so many of the Middle East and African borders are more recent and their ethnic groups have assimilated less, why not have them divide up into separate states?

Main question:
What do you think the criteria for being able to declare independence should be? For example, if you think Crimea shouldn't be able to declare independence from Ukraine (in a legitimate election), then why should Kosovo be able to declare independence from Serbia? And why not Scotland from the UK? Does every region have the ability to hold a vote on if they would like to be part of a larger state? Is this a universal right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_independence_precedent

I've listed my two criteria above (more like guesses really), but what are your criteria?

Second question:
If Afghanistan and Iraq divided up into separate states, would that improve those areas?

[You kip if you want to...]

The nation-state is a rather Western idea and you can't compare how creating Scotland, Catalonia etc as new nation-states would work to how divisions in the middle east would work.

[Niemeyerite]

In Catalonia people use Catalan more than Spanish, that for sure.

[MaxQue]

2. More people in each region use the national language (English and Spanish) more than their regional language (Scottish Gaelic and Catalan).

Calatan language is more used than Spanish in Catalunya.

[Simfan34]

Pretty much never. I can think of when the central polity disintegrates, or is actively persecuting the citizens of that region for the sole reason they hail from that region, but not much else.

[Meursault]

This should happen much more often than it does. Most nations should dissolve and re-constitute themselves every twenty or so years. Thus they'd be better able to account for the radically accelerated pace of techological and demographic change within modernity. And planning it out could smooth out the harshest edges of that process.

[bgwah]

Are we talking international recognition? There's obviously a lot of politics behind it all. The US/UK/France are often on the other side of Russia/China, and their veto powers will stop any official UN recognition of border changes. If a country can agree to split and none of the permanent members of the security council object, then a new state can be recognized.

I think there's obviously a lot of hypocrisy behind what each side recognizes. For example, a NATO member has already done something very similar to what Russia did in Crimea, but despite all of our condemnations Turkey is still a part of NATO.

The problem you run into drawing lines along ethnic/linguistic/religious differences is that many areas are mixed. One side of a river might have a 60-40 majority of Ethnicity A, while the other side has a 60-40 majority of Ethnicity B. Does it really make sense to divide that area along ethnic lines? Larger cities in particular are usually very mixed. Are people supposed to just move? Population transfers aren't exactly desirable. And people are always moving inside of a country. The current demographic makeup of a country might not reflect historical boundaries. Brussels is historically Flemish, but now is mostly French.

Unfortunately some regions like Iraq are so unstable and violent that population transfers are going to happen either way, and I think one could make an argument that partition is the least terrible option available.

In some of these countries there are often sparsely populated areas in between two populated parts of a country. If natural resources weren't an issue, I imagine Cyrenaica could split off of Libya fairly nicely. Or to use an example that already happened, splitting Pakistan and Bangladesh seems reasonable enough, given that there was a huge country separating them.

I think a worry people have with splitting African and Asian countries is that once it happens a few times, it will motivate further independence movements and cause wars, genocides, and instability.

[retromike22]

In Catalonia people use Catalan more than Spanish, that for sure.

Calatan language is more used than Spanish in Catalunya.

I'm quoting wikipedia but this segment is in turn quoting this:
http://www.idescat.cat/dequavi/?TC=444&V0=15&V1=2

According to the most recent linguistic census held by the Government of Catalonia as of 2009, a plurality claims Spanish as "their own language" (46.53% Spanish compared to 37.26% Catalan). In everyday use, 11.95% of the population claim to use both languages equally, whereas 45.92% mainly use Spanish and 35.54% mainly use Catalan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia#Languages

I am sure that there are areas withing Catalonia that have more Catalan than Spanish speakers, but on the whole I think Catalonia has more Spanish speakers than Catalan.

But this raises the issue:
Can those areas secede from Catalonia?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2jUhnCU9iA

[ingemann]

First the irony that a American of all people claim that to have legitime reason to separate from a country you need to speak a separate language are hilarious.

Second as for Gaelic not been widely used enough, that's very well, of course Gaelic was never or only for a very short period the majority language of Scotland (depending on when you say Scotland was founded and whether people claim Pictish was Gaelic). Historical the majority language of Scotland have been Scots English until the 20th century. So to claim that Scotland have no right to independence, because only a minority speak Gaelic are like claiming that USA have no right to exist because only a minority speak Pennsylvanian Dutch or Cajun French.

Third and this is only my opinion about your question. A nation exist if the people say it exist. Most Irish people speak English, most Americans speak English, that doesn't mean that they are not a separate people from the English. As such I think that any region which can claim a majority for separatism have a right to separate, whether they speak their own language or not.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The correct answer tends to be 'when it does', doesn't it?

[Velasco]

According to the most recent linguistic census held by the Government of Catalonia as of 2009, a plurality claims Spanish as "their own language" (46.53% Spanish compared to 37.26% Catalan). In everyday use, 11.95% of the population claim to use both languages equally, whereas 45.92% mainly use Spanish and 35.54% mainly use Catalan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia#Languages

I am sure that there are areas withing Catalonia that have more Catalan than Spanish speakers, but on the whole I think Catalonia has more Spanish speakers than Catalan.

But this raises the issue:
Can those areas secede from Catalonia?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2jUhnCU9iA

That census has various categories.

1)"Llengua inicial": Literally "initial language". I think it refers to the language spoken at home.

Catalan 31.64%; Spanish 54.99%; Both 3.84%

2) "Llengua d'identificació": It means something like "identity language". I guess it refers to the language which speakers identify like their own.

Catalan 37.25%; Spanish 46.53%; Both 8,81%

3) "Llengua habitual": Literally "habitual language", that is to say, the language that speakers commonly speak.

Catalan 35.64%; Spanish 45.92%; Both 11.95%

If you want my opinion, I don't give a f*** for those figures. The fact is that Catalonia is overwhelmingly bilingual and it doesn't exist a linguistic barrier like that existing in Belgium between the Flemish and Vallon communities. Almost all Catalan speakers have Spanish as second language and a majority of Spanish speakers living there have at least a reasonable Catalan command, especially if they have learned the language at school. Second and third generation immigrants coming from other regions of Spain often identify themselves as Catalan and consider Catalan language as their own.

There are regional differences inside Catalonia and people who has Spanish as "initial language" prevail in Barcelona and Tarragona metropolitan areas, something predictable considering migratory flows from other parts of Spain, whereas in the rest of the territory prevail those who has Catalan in the same category. I think Barcelona and Tarragona will never secede from Catalonia, regardless if it remains in Spain or proclaims independence. Perhaps people in the isolated Val d'Aran (a valley with a proper language, different from Catalan and Spanish) might want to have their say.

[CatoMinor]

The key part of title here is the word "ability". A region has the ability the second they have the power to enforce their decision to separate. 

[retromike22]

The key part of title here is the word "ability". A region has the ability the second they have the power to enforce their decision to separate. 

I'm changing it to "right," that's closer to what I meant.

[Хahar 🤔]

I think there's obviously a lot of hypocrisy behind what each side recognizes. For example, a NATO member has already done something very similar to what Russia did in Crimea, but despite all of our condemnations Turkey is still a part of NATO.

I don't have any emotional attachment to the Turkish government nor any particular desire to spring to its defense, but those two situations aren't comparable. Based on the rhetoric of the government under Nicos Sampson that ceased power in Cyprus, there was reason to believe that the lives of Turks in Cyprus were unsafe. Nobody has ever seriously argued that Arseniy Yatsenyuk's government was planning genocide for the Russian-speakers of Crimea.

[memphis]

The language factor is not at all discrete. It is exceedingly uncommon that anybody speaks a language 100% according to textbook standards. Dialects and mutual intelligibility fade in and out very gradually with distance. I don't have an easy clean cut answer to the question at hand either, but the language game solves nothing.

[ilikeverin]

I think a worry people have with splitting African and Asian countries is that once it happens a few times, it will motivate further independence movements and cause wars, genocides, and instability.

Yeah, that's I think one of the primary worries... not so much that any particular division is bad, but going back to a world where borders can and do change with some regularity would lead to far too much instability.  The idea that borders are divinely appointed, sacrosanct entities does cause a lot of grief, especially when those borders were drawn by idiotic Europeans, but it does keep countries from going to war every time they see something on the next side of the border that they'd like to have.

[Orser67]

Personally, I think any region should have the right to call for a referendum of independence. If pro-secessionists can win over 60% in two free and fair elections set four years apart, then they should the have the right to declare independence, so long as they guarantee the rights of minorities (or minority-heavy regions have the right to break away from them). You could run into problems over what should constitute a "region," but generally speaking I would allow any distinct cultural or geographical region with >500k people to qualify.

Also, any group that suffers from a program of ethnic cleaning and/or genocide should generally have the right to their own state (although I wouldn't extend this right past the last few decades).