A Taxanomy for Protestants

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Treating the Trinity as a purely left-right issue could lead to some weird placements of groups like Oneness Pentecostals, although I'd imagine that they'd give the 'conservative' answer to enough of the other questions to still be far to the right.

Beginning and end of life issues, perhaps?

[Oldiesfreak1854]

So I'm starting to make up a quiz for the compass. Anyone ideas for questions?

Here's what I have so far:
Left-Right
Literal resurrection
Female clergy
YEC vs. Evolution
Trinity
Belief in God period
Marriage
Divorce

High-Low
Infant vs Believer's Baptism
Preferred form of church government
Communion (probably 2-3 q's related to this)

How about theories of atonement, or Eucharist theology?

My denomination would probably be more in line with DC, but my personal views would be somewhat less conservative and high church.

What's Seventh-Day Adventist worship and church governance like? For some reason I find the idea that could be described as High Church surprising.

From an outsider's view, I'd have to say that they are Low Church in their worship-style, at least where I live. One of the larger Seventh-Day Adventist churches in my locale supports Washington, D.C.'s only major contemporary Christian music station and sponsors CCM concerts. That doesn't sound very High Church to me.

Most conservatives in the church are vehemently opposed to contemporary Christian music (including my pastor), but some churches do use it.  This church is a good example, although it appears to be one of the larger SDA churches out there.  I also occasionally watch some of the services at Pioneer Memorial(on the campus of an SDA university in my home state of Michigan), a very large church that frequently uses both traditional and contemporary hymns.  That seems to be the pattern I've seen: the small SDA churches (like mine) stick to traditional, High Church services and are very anti-CCM; the larger churches are more progressive and comfortable with it.

As for church governance, I don't know how to describe it, but it's definitely not congregational.  The individual churches make decisions on accepting members or allowing them to transfer elsewhere, but doctrinal issues are largely controlled by the global church leadership at the General Conference.

Thanks for the insight, especially since you are an SDA member yourself. I'd say that many Baptist churches in the South are like the SDA ones in the regard that the large (or new) ones accept almost any music, while the small, established Baptist churches prefer traditional or acoustic music.

Also, the Adventist church that supports the CCM station where I live is huge, which validates what you are saying.

You're welcome.  I personally don't find anything inherently wrong with CCM, but I strongly prefer traditional hymns because I find them much more uplifting for me, personally.  I love a lot of the praise hymns that make up a lot of old CCM, though.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

So I'm starting to make up a quiz for the compass. Anyone ideas for questions?

Here's what I have so far:
Left-Right
Literal resurrection
Female clergy
YEC vs. Evolution
Trinity
Belief in God period
Marriage
Divorce

High-Low
Infant vs Believer's Baptism
Preferred form of church government
Communion (probably 2-3 q's related to this)

How about theories of atonement, or Eucharist theology?

Theories of atonement can get pretty abstracted from most people's day-to-day spirituality and religious practice and a lot of the mainline churches to the best of my knowledge don't really have a single clearly defined one but they still might be worth taking into account. Eucharistic theology definitely would.

[Never]

So I'm starting to make up a quiz for the compass. Anyone ideas for questions?

Here's what I have so far:
Left-Right
Literal resurrection
Female clergy
YEC vs. Evolution
Trinity
Belief in God period
Marriage
Divorce

High-Low
Infant vs Believer's Baptism
Preferred form of church government
Communion (probably 2-3 q's related to this)

Building on "preferred form of church government" in High-Low, it would seem that ease of leaving a denomination (or lack thereof) would tell us if a denomination is authoritarian or not. Naturally, this would make Episcopal and Presbyterian churches rank higher on the authoritarian front, but it is likely that we will still witness some variance within those polities.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

So I'm starting to make up a quiz for the compass. Anyone ideas for questions?

Here's what I have so far:
Left-Right
Literal resurrection
Female clergy
YEC vs. Evolution
Trinity
Belief in God period
Marriage
Divorce

High-Low
Infant vs Believer's Baptism
Preferred form of church government
Communion (probably 2-3 q's related to this)

Here are some, just naming them off the top of my head:

Left-Right
Abortion
Homosexuality, ordination of LGBT people (if this wasn't already included under 'Marriage')
Salvation
Eternal punishment/Eternal reward
Five Solae(?)
TULIP(?)
Biblical inerrancy
Prayer, the value of prayer, and whether or not one should only pray to God
Virgin birth
Christian perspectives on Mary
Alcohol
Premarital sex
Pornography

High-Low
Instruments in church(?)
Ritualism
Spiritual gifts
Appropriate church attire

[TJ in Oregon]

How do TULIP, prayer to saints, and the role of Mary fit on the left/right spectrum? If anything shouldn't they be on the high church/low church spectrum?

[Del Tachi]

So I'm starting to make up a quiz for the compass. Anyone ideas for questions?

Here's what I have so far:
Left-Right
Literal resurrection
Female clergy
YEC vs. Evolution
Trinity
Belief in God period
Marriage
Divorce

High-Low
Infant vs Believer's Baptism
Preferred form of church government
Communion (probably 2-3 q's related to this)

I'm here to provide my standard Stone-Campebellite response. 

I think all the question topics you've presented so far belong under the "left-right" category.  Issues like baptism and communion are clearly doctrinal in nature rather than stylistic.  Church government opens a whole other can of worms, but I would argue that it doesn't actually tell us very much about where a person's/denomination's place would be on the axis. 

The left-right axis should tell us about what one believes, while the high-low axis should tell us about how they go about believing it.  The questions in the high-low category need to be about things like worship music, clerical dress, and the appropriateness of charismatic tendencies - not baptism and communion.

If you stick with the categories of questions and where you have them placed now, I think that you're not allowing for the possibility of a large number of people/denominations to be classified properly - chief among them the Churches of Christ, Disciples of Christ and other conservative congregational churches.  Worship in these congregations tend to be extremely conservative and traditionalist, but the system you have here would place them among the "lowest" of churches.     
   

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

How do TULIP, prayer to saints, and the role of Mary fit on the left/right spectrum? If anything shouldn't they be on the high church/low church spectrum?

No.  As Del Tachi said, the low-right spectrum should represent what you believe whereas the high church-low church spectrum should represent how those beliefs are expressed.*  For example, you and Nathan are, I would assume, very similar in terms of church worship and therefore would make good neighbors at the top of the spectrum.  What puts you most at odds are your different approaches to belief.

*In fact, I would probably move "Spiritual gifts" to the left-right spectrum.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

How do TULIP, prayer to saints, and the role of Mary fit on the left/right spectrum? If anything shouldn't they be on the high church/low church spectrum?

No.  As Del Tachi said, the low-right spectrum should represent what you believe whereas the high church-low church spectrum should represent how those beliefs are expressed.*  For example, you and Nathan are, I would assume, very similar in terms of church worship and therefore would make good neighbors at the top of the spectrum.  What puts you most at odds are your different approaches to belief.

But TJ and I are in theological agreement on all those things, and on the latter two I have no idea which would be the more stereotypically 'conservative' position. I think Del Tachi's metric there is too simplistic. The implied idea that worship that is 'extremely conservative and traditionalist' is ipso facto High in particular strikes me as odd.

[Del Tachi]

How do TULIP, prayer to saints, and the role of Mary fit on the left/right spectrum? If anything shouldn't they be on the high church/low church spectrum?

No.  As Del Tachi said, the low-right spectrum should represent what you believe whereas the high church-low church spectrum should represent how those beliefs are expressed.*  For example, you and Nathan are, I would assume, very similar in terms of church worship and therefore would make good neighbors at the top of the spectrum.  What puts you most at odds are your different approaches to belief.

But TJ and I are in theological agreement on all those things, and on the latter two I have no idea which would be the more stereotypically 'conservative' position. I think Del Tachi's metric there is too simplistic. The implied idea that worship that is 'extremely conservative and traditionalist' is ipso facto High in particular strikes me as odd.

Yet to define it any other way would be counterproductive to developing a comprehensive spectrum.  By using things like liturgical calendars and believer's baptism as a "litmus test" for carrying the name of a "high" church you've immediately denied the majority of American Protestants the same.  Very elitist indeed.  The scale that your proposing would probably place the Churches of Christ and Pentecostal snake charmers in the same spot on the chart

[TJ in Oregon]

How do TULIP, prayer to saints, and the role of Mary fit on the left/right spectrum? If anything shouldn't they be on the high church/low church spectrum?

No.  As Del Tachi said, the low-right spectrum should represent what you believe whereas the high church-low church spectrum should represent how those beliefs are expressed.*  For example, you and Nathan are, I would assume, very similar in terms of church worship and therefore would make good neighbors at the top of the spectrum.  What puts you most at odds are your different approaches to belief.

But TJ and I are in theological agreement on all those things, and on the latter two I have no idea which would be the more stereotypically 'conservative' position. I think Del Tachi's metric there is too simplistic. The implied idea that worship that is 'extremely conservative and traditionalist' is ipso facto High in particular strikes me as odd.

Yet to define it any other way would be counterproductive to developing a comprehensive spectrum.  By using things like liturgical calendars and believer's baptism as a "litmus test" for carrying the name of a "high" church you've immediately denied the majority of American Protestants the same.  Very elitist indeed.  The scale that your proposing would probably place the Churches of Christ and Pentecostal snake charmers in the same spot on the chart

Aren't things like liturgical calendars and believers' baptism the exact sort of things that determine whether a group is "high church" or "low church"? If you want to make sure snake charmers are differentiated, you could always add a question on snake charming

But how on earth do liturgical calendars fit into how conservative or liberal a denomination is? If it doesn't go on the high/low axis, how can you include that sort of thing at all?

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

How do TULIP, prayer to saints, and the role of Mary fit on the left/right spectrum? If anything shouldn't they be on the high church/low church spectrum?

No.  As Del Tachi said, the low-right spectrum should represent what you believe whereas the high church-low church spectrum should represent how those beliefs are expressed.*  For example, you and Nathan are, I would assume, very similar in terms of church worship and therefore would make good neighbors at the top of the spectrum.  What puts you most at odds are your different approaches to belief.

But TJ and I are in theological agreement on all those things, and on the latter two I have no idea which would be the more stereotypically 'conservative' position. I think Del Tachi's metric there is too simplistic. The implied idea that worship that is 'extremely conservative and traditionalist' is ipso facto High in particular strikes me as odd.

Yet to define it any other way would be counterproductive to developing a comprehensive spectrum.  By using things like liturgical calendars and believer's baptism as a "litmus test" for carrying the name of a "high" church you've immediately denied the majority of American Protestants the same.  Very elitist indeed.  The scale that your proposing would probably place the Churches of Christ and Pentecostal snake charmers in the same spot on the chart

Most of us Pentecostals don't charm snakes. 

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

How do TULIP, prayer to saints, and the role of Mary fit on the left/right spectrum? If anything shouldn't they be on the high church/low church spectrum?

No.  As Del Tachi said, the low-right spectrum should represent what you believe whereas the high church-low church spectrum should represent how those beliefs are expressed.*  For example, you and Nathan are, I would assume, very similar in terms of church worship and therefore would make good neighbors at the top of the spectrum.  What puts you most at odds are your different approaches to belief.

But TJ and I are in theological agreement on all those things, and on the latter two I have no idea which would be the more stereotypically 'conservative' position. I think Del Tachi's metric there is too simplistic. The implied idea that worship that is 'extremely conservative and traditionalist' is ipso facto High in particular strikes me as odd.

Yet to define it any other way would be counterproductive to developing a comprehensive spectrum.  By using things like liturgical calendars and believer's baptism as a "litmus test" for carrying the name of a "high" church you've immediately denied the majority of American Protestants the same.  Very elitist indeed.  The scale that your proposing would probably place the Churches of Christ and Pentecostal snake charmers in the same spot on the chart

'High Church' isn't generally seen as inherently complimentary, nor is 'Low Church' a derogation. It's not 'elitist' to 'deny' the former description to non-liturgical Protestants, although it may have been three hundred years ago when these terms were first used.

[Del Tachi]

How do TULIP, prayer to saints, and the role of Mary fit on the left/right spectrum? If anything shouldn't they be on the high church/low church spectrum?

No.  As Del Tachi said, the low-right spectrum should represent what you believe whereas the high church-low church spectrum should represent how those beliefs are expressed.*  For example, you and Nathan are, I would assume, very similar in terms of church worship and therefore would make good neighbors at the top of the spectrum.  What puts you most at odds are your different approaches to belief.

But TJ and I are in theological agreement on all those things, and on the latter two I have no idea which would be the more stereotypically 'conservative' position. I think Del Tachi's metric there is too simplistic. The implied idea that worship that is 'extremely conservative and traditionalist' is ipso facto High in particular strikes me as odd.

Yet to define it any other way would be counterproductive to developing a comprehensive spectrum.  By using things like liturgical calendars and believer's baptism as a "litmus test" for carrying the name of a "high" church you've immediately denied the majority of American Protestants the same.  Very elitist indeed.  The scale that your proposing would probably place the Churches of Christ and Pentecostal snake charmers in the same spot on the chart

Aren't things like liturgical calendars and believers' baptism the exact sort of things that determine whether a group is "high church" or "low church"? If you want to make sure snake charmers are differentiated, you could always add a question on snake charming

But how on earth do liturgical calendars fit into how conservative or liberal a denomination is? If it doesn't go on the high/low axis, how can you include that sort of thing at all?

My point is that regarding issues surrounding the use of a liturgy or communion as central to the understanding of which denominations are "high church" versus "low church" is going to result in some very strange results that most people would probably reject, and that would only make sense because divisions surrounding these issues go beyond simply the aesthetics of the worship and actually represent doctrinal differences that I believe can be understood on a conservative-to-liberal contiuum.   

As a member of the Churches of Christ, my congregation does not observe the liturgical calendar.  However, that's not simply because we don't like the aesthetic that it produces but rather because we reject the idea of a liturgy on doctrinal grounds.  I don't think that a doctrinal belief such as that one can be used to classify us as "low church" because at that point it fails to be a useful distinction.  While the idea of "high" versus "low" church is not inherently elitist, it is severely out-of-step and a bit closeminded to immediately regulate non-liturgical Protestants to the "low church" category when, for many of them, its a doctrinal rather than stylistic choice. 

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

How do TULIP, prayer to saints, and the role of Mary fit on the left/right spectrum? If anything shouldn't they be on the high church/low church spectrum?

No.  As Del Tachi said, the low-right spectrum should represent what you believe whereas the high church-low church spectrum should represent how those beliefs are expressed.*  For example, you and Nathan are, I would assume, very similar in terms of church worship and therefore would make good neighbors at the top of the spectrum.  What puts you most at odds are your different approaches to belief.

But TJ and I are in theological agreement on all those things, and on the latter two I have no idea which would be the more stereotypically 'conservative' position. I think Del Tachi's metric there is too simplistic. The implied idea that worship that is 'extremely conservative and traditionalist' is ipso facto High in particular strikes me as odd.

Yet to define it any other way would be counterproductive to developing a comprehensive spectrum.  By using things like liturgical calendars and believer's baptism as a "litmus test" for carrying the name of a "high" church you've immediately denied the majority of American Protestants the same.  Very elitist indeed.  The scale that your proposing would probably place the Churches of Christ and Pentecostal snake charmers in the same spot on the chart

Aren't things like liturgical calendars and believers' baptism the exact sort of things that determine whether a group is "high church" or "low church"? If you want to make sure snake charmers are differentiated, you could always add a question on snake charming

But how on earth do liturgical calendars fit into how conservative or liberal a denomination is? If it doesn't go on the high/low axis, how can you include that sort of thing at all?

My point is that regarding issues surrounding the use of a liturgy or communion as central to the understanding of which denominations are "high church" versus "low church" is going to result in some very strange results that most people would probably reject, and that would only make sense because divisions surrounding these issues go beyond simply the aesthetics of the worship and actually represent doctrinal differences that I believe can be understood on a conservative-to-liberal contiuum.   

As a member of the Churches of Christ, my congregation does not observe the liturgical calendar.  However, that's not simply because we don't like the aesthetic that it produces but rather because we reject the idea of a liturgy on doctrinal grounds.  I don't think that a doctrinal belief such as that one can be used to classify us as "low church" because at that point it fails to be a useful distinction.  While the idea of "high" versus "low" church is not inherently elitist, it is severely out-of-step and a bit closeminded to immediately regulate non-liturgical Protestants to the "low church" category when, for many of them, its a doctrinal rather than stylistic choice. 

The idea that distinguishing between High Church and Low Church is exclusively about stylistic choices and doesn't or shouldn't mean anything in terms of doctrine would itself be exceedingly unfamiliar to many people. And even if we did agree to redefine those terms so that they relate solely to style, how does treating Marian doctrine as a question of 'liberal' versus 'conservative' make a jot more sense? If anything it makes far less. Use of the liturgical calendar could be coherently described as a 'liberal' versus 'conservative' issue? Really? Eucharistic theology? Is memorialism 'liberal' while real presence is 'conservative', or is it the other way around, and why? Even if we could answer a question like that, how does it produce results that anybody would find useful? Actual political ideologies barely even make sense when treated as parts of one-dimensional left-right spectra, so how in the world are theology and religious doctrine supposed to? TJ is entirely correct that these sorts of questions are in fact precisely how the distinction between High Church and Low Church, which does have doctrinal implications and always has, has traditionally been defined. Even if you don't like the answers to whether these things are 'High Church' or 'Low Church', you can answer these questions that way, whereas with whether they're 'liberal' or 'conservative' you really, really can't. Not in the same way that you can for ordaining or not ordaining women or confessing or rejecting a physical understanding of the Resurrection, at least. If you don't like that then your real problem is with the existence of the High/Low dichotomy in general, not just our interpretation of it.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

A question I'd use for the High-Low spectrum is whether your church uses a lectionary or does the pastor simply pick the topic and scriptural passages for each week at eir pleasure?

[DC Al Fine]

A question I'd use for the High-Low spectrum is whether you church uses a lectionary or does the pastor simply pick the topic and scriptural passages for each week at eir pleasure?

Good one, I hadn't thought of that.

Clergy attire would be another good high-low one.

[ilikeverin]

Also gestures... both "low" (holding hands up in the air) and "high" (crossing oneself).

[they don't love you like i love you]

A question I'd use for the High-Low spectrum is whether you church uses a lectionary or does the pastor simply pick the topic and scriptural passages for each week at eir pleasure?

Good one, I hadn't thought of that.

Clergy attire would be another good high-low one.

Would hoodies be the lowest of all?

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Harry definitely belongs to the left of both BRTD and Progressive Realist. (Check the 'Holy Spirit' thread.)

[DC Al Fine]

Bumping since I finally have time to make a quiz. Last call for questions before I produce a rough draft.

Here is what I have so far:

Left-Right
Literal resurrection
Female clergy
YEC vs. Evolution
Trinity
Belief in God
Marriage
Divorce
Abortion
Homosexuality, ordination of LGBT people (if this wasn't already included under 'Marriage')
Salvation
Hell
Virgin birth
Premarital sex
Pornography
TULIP
Contraception
Gender roles

High-Low
Infant vs Believer's Baptism
Church government
Communion (Alcohol, frequency, theology etc.)
Instruments in church(?)
Ritualism
Spiritual gifts
Appropriate church attire
Vestments
Lectionary vs Pastor choosing scripture
Church Calendar
Hymns vs CCM vs Pslams


Any thoughts?

[Cassius]

It looks very good. Could prayers for the dead be included though, as bits of the Church of England (who, in theory, though perhaps not in practice fall under the Protestant umbrella) indulge in them, and, I believe, Martin Luther himself had a favourable opinion of them in the case of dead infants. Just a thought. Also, where be creeping to the cross

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Are you planning to offer more than two options on any of these? For instance, does accepting some of the points of TULIP but not others count for anything? Or supporting the ordination of celibate clergy who identify as gay but not clergy in same-sex partnerships, or some other such combination?

Seconding Cassius on prayers for the dead.

[TJ in Oregon]

How does TULIP fit into the left/right spectrum? Is free will a left wing or right wing position?

Also I think something about Sacraments would be a good addition to the high/low spectrum.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Err... the Virgin Mary's role in prayer and the church?