Presbyterians vote to endorse SSM

[Miles]

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[Never]

This isn't too surprising, considering the liberal attitudes of PC(USA). I have a feeling that most people who would have left this denomination based on this decision have already migrated to the conservative Presbyterian Church in America or other sects.

[TDAS04]

Good news.  It will be interesting to see if the PCUSA's decision intensifies the pressure that the United Methodist Church faces from within to do the same.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Good thing that PC(USA) is just another one of those 'outliers.'

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

This isn't too surprising, considering the liberal attitudes of PC(USA). I have a feeling that most people who would have left this denomination based on this decision have already migrated to the conservative Presbyterian Church in America or other sects.

True, tho this may cause a few more churches to leave for the PCA.  Incidentally in this area, the PCA and PCUSA are about equal in numbers as far as churches go.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

This isn't too surprising, considering the liberal attitudes of PC(USA). I have a feeling that most people who would have left this denomination based on this decision have already migrated to the conservative Presbyterian Church in America or other sects.

True, tho this may cause a few more churches to leave for the PCA.  Incidentally in this area, the PCA and PCUSA are about equal in numbers as far as churches go.

According to Wikipedia, the PC(USA) has 10,038 congregations and about 1,760,200 members, in contrast to PCA which has just 1,808 congregations and 367,033 members.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The disparity in numbers nationwide doesn't surprise me since not only is the South more conservative in its religion by and large, but also, the PCA was formed by a split from the southern PCUS before it merged with the northern PCUSA to become the PC(USA).

[H. Ross Peron]

I'm surprised they took this long.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

The disparity in numbers nationwide doesn't surprise me since not only is the South more conservative in its religion by and large, but also, the PCA was formed by a split from the southern PCUS before it merged with the northern PCUSA to become the PC(USA).

Ah, it seems I missed the "in this area" part of your post.

I'm surprised they took this long.

Are you changing denominations because of this?

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Also, this change requires approval from a majority of the 172 regional presbyteries next year, so it's not a done deal quite yet.

[GaussLaw]

Also, this change requires approval from a majority of the 172 regional presbyteries next year, so it's not a done deal quite yet.

Are the southern PCUSA branches more conservative than the northern ones? 

My opinion on SSM is mixed.  Given that we live in a heterogeneous society with many religions and that people who are committed to each other should be recognized, I support it as a government policy.  But I am not convinced that homosexual sex is not a sin, though I understand the theological arguments saying so. 

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Also, this change requires approval from a majority of the 172 regional presbyteries next year, so it's not a done deal quite yet.

Are the southern PCUSA branches more conservative than the northern ones? 

I wouldn't know personally, but I'd assume that to be true.  The PC(USA) already lost a number of churches after they removed barriers to ordination for people with same-sex partners.  At this point, any church that wants to leave the church for it not being conservative enough has probably already done so (which would actually be good news, in a way, to proponents of this change, assuming that individual congregations have much influence in how their presbytery votes).  So, while I would think this proposal will receive greater backlash in the South than in any other region, it probably won't be overwhelming backlash.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

I really wish my internet connection wasn't so fuzzy so that I could look at Robert Gagnon's Facebook page.  He's probably not too happy.

Oh yeah, and Matthew Vines must be dancing in the streets right now.

[Never]

This isn't too surprising, considering the liberal attitudes of PC(USA). I have a feeling that most people who would have left this denomination based on this decision have already migrated to the conservative Presbyterian Church in America or other sects.

True, tho this may cause a few more churches to leave for the PCA.  Incidentally in this area, the PCA and PCUSA are about equal in numbers as far as churches go.

According to Wikipedia, the PC(USA) has 10,038 congregations and about 1,760,200 members, in contrast to PCA which has just 1,808 congregations and 367,033 members.

Yes, this is true that the PC(USA) is much larger than PCA, but it is not the only denomination that has snatched adherents from the PC(USA), which is admitting this itself. There is also the EPC with a self-reported 145,000 members.

I think it's worth noting that while the PC(USA) is currently the largest presbytery in the nation, its numbers are on a downward trajectory. The denomination declined from about 3.13 million members in 1983 to only 1.84 million members as of 2012 (and now it is down to 1.76 million based on your data), so it's not like they are at a good point relative to their past numbers. There is some speculation that the denomination will keep shrinking in the years to come, but this will probably be attributed to various factors, not just people leaving for conservative denominations.

Also, this change requires approval from a majority of the 172 regional presbyteries next year, so it's not a done deal quite yet.

Are the southern PCUSA branches more conservative than the northern ones?  

My opinion on SSM is mixed.  Given that we live in a heterogeneous society with many religions and that people who are committed to each other should be recognized, I support it as a government policy.  But I am not convinced that homosexual sex is not a sin, though I understand the theological arguments saying so.  

The local PC(USA) church in my hometown here in VA has a woman pastor, so I suspect if the PC(USA) churches here are actually more conservative than the northern ones, it might not be by much. Plus, many of the Southern communities with PC(USA) churches have a conservative PCA alternative, so there isn't much of a reason for the PC(USA) churches to stake a conservative position on issues. I think that the PC(USA) churches that are conservative are probably already in the process of withdrawing from the denomination or have already done so, so I'll mostly agree with Scott's comments above on this one.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I agree that this is unlikely to cause any great numbers of churches to leave the PCUSA.  Incidentally, there is barely an EPC presence here in the midlands.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that all churches have lost members over the past few decades.  I have neither the time nor the desire to compare 'exodus rates' among the trillion Protestant sects in the United States, but I don't think the evolving attitudes on homosexuality have a very large impact on that.  After all, the PC(USA) retained the vast majority of its churches after the 2011 revision and I don't think it will be digging its grave any time soon.

FWIW, one of the comments on an article that NC posted said that there were some people who joined the UCC because the PC(USA) wasn't progressive enough for them.  Take that as you will.

[All Along The Watchtower]

To those in the know: How much of the "mainline Protestant decline/conservative and/or evangelical Protestant increase" can be attributed to differences in birth rates between the two categories of Protestants?

How much can be attributed to better (or rather, much more aggressive) evangelical outreach to minorities and the "unchurched"?

What about mainliners leaving for more conservative and/or evangelical churches (or alternately, leaving the church altogether, for whatever reason-I suspect, based on anecdotes of living in the SF Bay Area, a lot more liberals than conservatives fall into that latter group )

Finally, how much is this also a matter of mainline churches tending to being older (both in terms of denominations and in terms of congregants ) than evangelical churches?

I believe all of these contribute, but I'm curious to see what accounts for the bulk of the differences, or which is the most significant factor.

[TJ in Oregon]

To those in the know: How much of the "mainline Protestant decline/conservative and/or evangelical Protestant increase" can be attributed to differences in birth rates between the two categories of Protestants?

It can't be much. A difference in birth rates could explain a slow drift in membership statistics across many generations, but we're not talking about a subtle change here; we're talking about a nearly complete obliteration of many of the mainline denominations, in the case of the PCUSA losing close to half its members over 30 years.

I'm not sure on the whole what it is, but anecdotally, a lot of the Protestants I know that go to "Evangelical" churches were raised mainline Protestants who went off to college and found their denomination on campus looked nothing like the one they were raised in, so they went elsewhere. A lot of them came from smaller towns with tight-knit communities and a generally more theologically conservative outlook and then come to campus to see something they find unrecognizable. Biblical literalism was replaced by feelings and music by Wesley was replaced by Haugen (or organs by guitars). Either way when people move from place to place the variation they often find within the mainline denominations is sufficiently large that they no longer really see themselves as a part of them anymore.

[TJ in Oregon]

I had a PCUSA minister give the invocation at my college graduation ceremony. It was... strange. She started off with the phrase "O great spirit..." at the beginning of the prayer and her pronoun usage switched somewhere in the middle from being directed at a single entity to being directed at the people in attendance. It was really bizarre and I wasn't sure where she was talking to God or us. I'd also been told by people that the PCUSA church on campus was more or less post-Christian when it came to their concept of the nature of God. Their idea of God was only loosely tethered to an idea of a personhood at all, let alone Trinitarian.

[H. Ross Peron]

I'm surprised they took this long.

Are you changing denominations because of this?

No, I've never been affiliated with the PCUSA.

[DC Al Fine]

Also, this change requires approval from a majority of the 172 regional presbyteries next year, so it's not a done deal quite yet.

Are the southern PCUSA branches more conservative than the northern ones? 

I wouldn't know personally, but I'd assume that to be true.  The PC(USA) already lost a number of churches after they removed barriers to ordination for people with same-sex partners.  At this point, any church that wants to leave the church for it not being conservative enough has probably already done so

You'd think that, but it's surprising how strong inertia can be. My local United Church (to the left of American Episcopalians) is having a schism vote some 15+ years after they started blessing same-sex unions

[DC Al Fine]

To those in the know: How much of the "mainline Protestant decline/conservative and/or evangelical Protestant increase" can be attributed to differences in birth rates between the two categories of Protestants?

It can't be much. A difference in birth rates could explain a slow drift in membership statistics across many generations, but we're not talking about a subtle change here; we're talking about a nearly complete obliteration of many of the mainline denominations, in the case of the PCUSA losing close to half its members over 30 years.

You have to get extremely conservative for birth rates to make any difference between denominations. Sects that eschew birth control have seen rapid growth. Ex: There's a Psalms-only Presbyterian church in my hometown that has surpassed my own church almost entirely off the women have 8 kids each.

[DC Al Fine]

I had a PCUSA minister give the invocation at my college graduation ceremony. It was... strange. She started off with the phrase "O great spirit..." at the beginning of the prayer and her pronoun usage switched somewhere in the middle from being directed at a single entity to being directed at the people in attendance. It was really bizarre and I wasn't sure where she was talking to God or us. I'd also been told by people that the PCUSA church on campus was more or less post-Christian when it came to their concept of the nature of God. Their idea of God was only loosely tethered to an idea of a personhood at all, let alone Trinitarian.

There's a pretty huge variation within mainline Presbyterian churches. You can still get a conservative Reformed message in one, while the one down the road preaches the post-Christian stuff you're describing.

[ElectionsGuy]

This is a baby step in the right direction. Hope this will pick up some steam. 

[TNF]

Liberal Christianity has to attempt to broaden it's support base to survive (and will do that by making political decisions, like this one) but that base of support it's trying to reach out to are precisely that group of people which is becoming far less religious and far more secular. In doing so, it alienates those which are arguably most committed to the doctrine of the faith it proclaims, sending them into the arms of the conservative elements of that faith. These kinds of actions might buy it time in the short run, but will ultimately only further the disintegration of the liberal churches, and in fact may end up accelerating it.