Only rich folks go to Congress
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  Only rich folks go to Congress
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Author Topic: Only rich folks go to Congress  (Read 4158 times)
politicus
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« on: June 26, 2014, 11:42:18 PM »

US federal politicians are almost always well off, Senators generally rich by most standards. Is it  problem that its so hard for a person with a middle class/working class economy to get elected to Congress? Let alone run for President.

What if anything should be done to change this?
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2014, 08:27:29 AM »

Is it  problem that its so hard for a person with a middle class/working class economy to get elected to Congress?

Yes. A huge one.


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That won't happen anytime soon.
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AggregateDemand
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« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2014, 11:28:41 AM »

In general, societies want to be represented by accomplished intelligent individuals. Congress will hopefully always be stocked with accomplished individuals. The difficult part is finding people who put the country before themselves.
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Franzl
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« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2014, 12:48:58 PM »

In general, societies want to be represented by accomplished intelligent individuals.

Your party in particular seems to disagree.
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GaussLaw
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2014, 12:52:39 PM »

In general, societies want to be represented by accomplished intelligent individuals.

Your party in particular seems to disagree.

Paul Broun is certainly an accomplished MD, and one cannot be a dummy and become a doctor.  I think most GOP politicians are intelligent by traditional measurements, but they have a unique propensity to say and believe stupid things.
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Franzl
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2014, 12:55:19 PM »

In general, societies want to be represented by accomplished intelligent individuals.

Your party in particular seems to disagree.

Paul Broun is certainly an accomplished MD, and one cannot be a dummy and become a doctor.  I think most GOP politicians are intelligent by traditional measurements, but they have a unique propensity to say and believe stupid things.

Meant the Republican electorate primarily, who seem to be proudly anti-intellectual.
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AggregateDemand
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2014, 01:31:04 PM »

Your party in particular seems to disagree.

Have you ever heard any American politician make intelligent remarks during a campaign? It's rare. The complexities of governing are so far removed from the interests of the average 90 IQ voter that it would be pointless to campaign on sound policy.

However, the parties tend to choose accomplished, intelligent people to say dumb things during their Senate campaigns. The House is a different story. Too many districts. Too many representatives. It's basically a free-for-all, and they'd rather have a few savvy people whipping the dumbs into compliance. Both parties employ legions of idiots to hold territory in the House.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2014, 02:15:22 PM »

A stupid republican is probably not the best person to comment of the intelligence of Republicans. Tongue
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AggregateDemand
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« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2014, 02:43:46 PM »

A stupid republican is probably not the best person to comment of the intelligence of Republicans. Tongue

To be fair, you think single-payer in the US is thwarted by a band of Congressional Republicans who could barely muster a filibuster. Perhaps someday, you will realize that the existing healthcare bureaucracy has $1T in its war chest, and it has no intention of spreading the benefits around.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2014, 02:55:55 PM »

To be fair, you think single-payer in the US is thwarted by a band of Congressional Republicans who could barely muster a filibuster.

I don't "think" that - it's a verifiable fact. Well, technically, it's a band of Congressional Republicans who could barely muster a filibuster plus Joe Lieberman. Doesn't change much.
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politicus
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« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2014, 09:36:13 PM »
« Edited: June 27, 2014, 10:22:09 PM by politicus »

This thread isn't going well.


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That won't happen anytime soon.

No, but that was not what I was asking about.

For the record, while I probably should find some stats for this, the US Congress is more elitist in its composition than almost all other Western Parliaments.

Cant a craftsman, union leader, nurse, farmer, social worker or public administrator be accomplished and intelligent? Some of you seem to equal intelligence to financial success.
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muon2
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« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2014, 10:43:12 PM »

A stupid republican is probably not the best person to comment of the intelligence of Republicans. Tongue

Perhaps you would rather someone else should comment instead. Tongue

And yes in my experience both sides generally play to the lowest common denominator. It is much easier to push a message that way, especially if you want a precious 10-15 seconds on national media.
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Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese
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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2014, 06:46:54 AM »

Cant a craftsman, union leader, nurse, farmer, social worker or public administrator be accomplished and intelligent? Some of you seem to equal intelligence to financial success.

Hear, hear!

Anyway I think one of the reasons for this problem has to do with the party structure and culture in the US comapred to most other Western countries. 

If you run for parliament in Sweden or Denmark, you run for your party and your campaign is financed by your party. You don't really put in any money yourself in your campaign.

In the US, sure you run for your party in a way, but mostly you run as an individual candidate. You can get some party funding for your campaign in the main election, but mostly it's your own responsibility to raise the money, and in primaries you don't get any party funds. Raising money is obviously more easy in case you are well off or know lots of people that are.   

So to change this you propably need to change the entire political culture of the US, which would be quite the challange. Getting superpacks and unlimited money spending on campaigns out of the way would obviously be a start though.

Interstlingly enough, propbably as a result of this, there seems to be no other place in any democracy were politicians are so obsessed with trying to appear as regular Joes and just one of the guys.   
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TNF
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« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2014, 10:08:20 AM »

Elections are the source of this problem; if you want working class people in government, you have to fundamentally change how politicians are chosen. The Athenian democracy did not have elections to the extent that we do. Athenians distrusted election because it almost always hands power to the rich. The real solution is to forego elections in favor of random selection of officeholders.
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AggregateDemand
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« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2014, 10:13:15 AM »

Cant a craftsman, union leader, nurse, farmer, social worker or public administrator be accomplished and intelligent? Some of you seem to equal intelligence to financial success.

No. The US is too complex and power in the Western Hemisphere is too centralized to have a pipe-fitter in the federal chambers of government. The welders, union leaders, farmers, teachers, nurses, soldiers, athletes, bus drivers, etc can all run for state office, where they are only responsible for a few million people.

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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2014, 10:51:27 AM »

Cant a craftsman, union leader, nurse, farmer, social worker or public administrator be accomplished and intelligent? Some of you seem to equal intelligence to financial success.

No. The US is too complex and power in the Western Hemisphere is too centralized to have a pipe-fitter in the federal chambers of government. The welders, union leaders, farmers, teachers, nurses, soldiers, athletes, bus drivers, etc can all run for state office, where they are only responsible for a few million people.

You truly are a disgusting person.
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TNF
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« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2014, 10:53:12 AM »

Cant a craftsman, union leader, nurse, farmer, social worker or public administrator be accomplished and intelligent? Some of you seem to equal intelligence to financial success.

No. The US is too complex and power in the Western Hemisphere is too centralized to have a pipe-fitter in the federal chambers of government. The welders, union leaders, farmers, teachers, nurses, soldiers, athletes, bus drivers, etc can all run for state office, where they are only responsible for a few million people.

Yes, we wouldn't want to give the parasitic bankers and lawyers in D.C. any competition, now would we?
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Foucaulf
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« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2014, 11:07:36 AM »

The simplest explanation for this trend? Constituency size. Campaign costs are probably convex over the number of voters in a constituency, since a candidate may personally know a good chunk of the electorate in a small constituency. With a large constituency, a candidate either has to pay a lot more for mass media publicity, or spend resources wooing other interest group leaders in the area. Add in the possibility of outside cash flows and there's an arms race in the making.

Similar situations can be found in countries of the U.S.'s size: Brazil, India, and China (not democratic, but definitely cliquish)

As to how that mechanism relates to whether it should happen: probably not, since it leads to lower ability for the average voter to have leverage against the candidates. It also could be that a candidate with a profession that is less out of touch can appeal to those qualities in a campaign, instead of spewing invective at someone else. But I think that effect is minor.

No. The US is too complex and power in the Western Hemisphere is too centralized to have a pipe-fitter in the federal chambers of government.

Doesn't this contradict your earlier assertion that

The House is a different story ... [parties would] rather have a few savvy people whipping the dumbs into compliance. Both parties employ legions of idiots to hold territory in the House.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2014, 12:56:37 PM »

Pay politicians more money.
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AggregateDemand
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« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2014, 01:03:51 PM »
« Edited: June 28, 2014, 01:06:17 PM by AggregateDemand »

You truly are a disgusting person.

And you dream of a world where AR-15-weilding rednecks and theologians are over 50% of Congress. Grow up. Sooner rather than later.
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2014, 02:30:36 PM »
« Edited: August 01, 2014, 04:14:40 AM by A.G. Snowstalker »

Elections are the source of this problem; if you want working class people in government, you have to fundamentally change how politicians are chosen. The Athenian democracy did not have elections to the extent that we do. Athenians distrusted election because it almost always hands power to the rich. The real solution is to forego elections in favor of random selection of officeholders.

I've though about demarchy and I'm iffy. But at the very least make elections as democratic as possible--no campaign spending allowed whatsoever and ensure that officeholders can be recalled by their constituents at any time, and in general bring in Nix's proposals.
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Indy Texas
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« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2014, 03:33:27 PM »


I don't know whether this would achieve the intended result, at least in federal politics. Members of Congress make, at a minimum, $174,000 per year, in addition to a large package of benefits that includes a generous pension. Anyone who can get elected will earn enough to support themselves. (There's a good argument for paying them more as a safeguard against corruption, but that seems less relevant to the OP's question.)

The trouble is that there are high barriers to entry. Running for office as a non-incumbent usually involves both a lengthy period of campaigning and a substantial chance of losing. Paying officeholders more will increase the expected value of running for office, but that doesn't encourage anyone to run unless they can afford the downside risk.

Remember that on that $174,000 per year, you have to maintain not one but two residences - one in your district and one in The District. If you want to bring your family to Washington with you (which seems preferable to only seeing them on weekends), you'll have to put your kids in private schools and your spouse will probably have to leave whatever career they had before you were elected. There's a big financial opportunity cost to serving in Congress.

Cant a craftsman, union leader, nurse, farmer, social worker or public administrator be accomplished and intelligent? Some of you seem to equal intelligence to financial success.
No. The US is too complex and power in the Western Hemisphere is too centralized to have a pipe-fitter in the federal chambers of government. The welders, union leaders, farmers, teachers, nurses, soldiers, athletes, bus drivers, etc can all run for state office, where they are only responsible for a few million people.

Too complex, then, for a sports reporter (Palin) or a B-movie actor (Reagan), whose entire job consists of being able to read cue cards that someone else wrote for them.
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GaussLaw
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« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2014, 06:46:59 PM »

Cant a craftsman, union leader, nurse, farmer, social worker or public administrator be accomplished and intelligent? Some of you seem to equal intelligence to financial success.

No. The US is too complex and power in the Western Hemisphere is too centralized to have a pipe-fitter in the federal chambers of government. The welders, union leaders, farmers, teachers, nurses, soldiers, athletes, bus drivers, etc can all run for state office, where they are only responsible for a few million people.



Sigh...

I would love it if every last lawyer was expelled from DC.

I would trust the first 100 people in my telephone book far more than the 100 people in the Senate, to paraphrase Buckley.  And yes, I know he is a conservative, but he was definitely right. 
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ComradeCarter
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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2014, 07:31:18 PM »

Bad idea, Gauss. Nepotism would be even worse.
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AggregateDemand
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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2014, 10:11:26 PM »

Too complex, then, for a sports reporter (Palin) or a B-movie actor (Reagan), whose entire job consists of being able to read cue cards that someone else wrote for them.

Yes, and that's why Reagan is a hero on the right. People who defy the odds, overcome dissent from the establishment, and acquit themselves on the job should be hailed as heroes. However, no one should leap to the conclusion that electing under-qualified representatives is a preferable brand of populism.

If a representative is not strong enough to swim with sharks, he/she will end up as a pawn of the establishment.
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