A question for those who support the social welfare state
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  A question for those who support the social welfare state
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Author Topic: A question for those who support the social welfare state  (Read 809 times)
Matty
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« on: June 28, 2014, 04:55:49 PM »

Would you support a $2100/month guaranteed income for Americans below a certain income level if it meant doing away with all specific welfare programs? The people receiving the income would simply use private services with the money they are given.

Note that Social Security, medicare are immune from this abolition.
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Nathan
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« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2014, 05:05:39 PM »

This is an idea that I've heard a lot from certain elements on the left and on the right. Yes, I'd support this, and it's not as hard a question as you're making it sound.
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Indy Texas
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« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2014, 05:06:00 PM »

See, I really don't know what the hell you people are talking about when you refer to "welfare programs" as this amorphous group of services. What about the disability insurance component of Social Security? Why would Medicare be exempt but not Medicaid?

The amount of money the typical food stamp/TANF recipient gets is nowhere near $2,100 a month. You're giving them a huge "raise" as it were. But I suppose you think that's how they pay for their "Cadillacs" that Ronald Reagan warned you about.
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Meursault
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« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2014, 05:46:07 PM »

Why are programmes for the unemployable elderly exempt from your scheme?
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Matty
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2014, 05:48:21 PM »

They would get the 2100, but they still get medicare and SS, largely because they are the most vulnerable. By the way, some of you people get pissed off way too easily. I was not implying that people on welfare get "cadillacs". Jesus Christ don't be so sensitive!
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Meursault
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« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2014, 05:52:56 PM »

That's dumb. The problem with our welfare system is that it penalizes youth by discouraging saving. We support the old who already have more accumulated wealth and do nothing to help the young prepare for the future.
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memphis
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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2014, 06:06:19 PM »

What about people in nursing homes? $2,100 won't come close to covering their needs. Shall we throw those with advanced Alzheimer's on the street?
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Meursault
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« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2014, 07:04:11 PM »

Here is my counter-proposal:

All Americans aged eighteen or more qualify for a guaranteed minimum income of $2,000.00 per month.

This is reduced to $1,500.00 per month at age  30, $1,200.00 at 42, $1,000.00 at 54, and eliminated upon reaching the age of 66, at which age Social Security and Medicare kick in.
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AggregateDemand
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« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2014, 09:36:05 PM »

$2100 per month is too high, and would require the adoption of regressive tax rates. For a single individual, poverty-line income is around $1000 per month. Depending on the implementation of Medicaid and SNAP, guaranteed minimum income should be set around %75 of poverty level, if it's going to work without bankrupting the nation.

The amount of the payment isn't really the sticking point. The tax system is the tax rate or phaseout is what makes the big difference.
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Nathan
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2014, 09:13:49 AM »

For a single individual, poverty-line income is around $1000 per month.

That's because the poverty line is really perversely defined.
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Hatman 🍁
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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2014, 11:06:34 AM »

And how is one supposed to get by at $1000 a month? That doesn't even cover rent for most people.
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AggregateDemand
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« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2014, 12:29:05 PM »

And how is one supposed to get by at $1000 a month? That doesn't even cover rent for most people.

GMI or NIT are comprehensive economic policies that effect everything from aggregate consumption to demand for labor. The goal is not to see how much you can give away. You're trying to raise income. A small minority of people acquire their income via transfer payments so you're obviously not going to scale comprehensive economic reform around the exceptionally poor. We've been doing that for a half-century. It's counter-productive.

The goal is to create a surplus of jobs at the bottom end of the pay scale so the US can import labor responsibly, export jobs responsibly, and raise wages. Adjustments can be made for people with limited access to the labor market, like single mothers, by giving additional income for qualifying children.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2014, 12:40:55 PM »

And how is one supposed to get by at $1000 a month? That doesn't even cover rent for most people.

Speak for yourself Ontario boy Wink

As for the question itself; I like minimum incomes, but there's a huge variation in cost of living across the USA. $2100/month might be plenty to live on in Texas (assuming healthcare is covered), and nowhere near enough in some of the major east coast cities.

Would the $2100 be adjusted for cost of living?
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Del Tachi
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« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2014, 07:00:35 PM »

I would generally favor keeping the current welfare bureaucracy largely intact for the very reason that it gives the government a certain level of control over the spending decisions of the programs' beneficiaries.

At least with the SNAP program we know what the beneficiaries are spending their money on, whereas with a guaranteed minimum income I'd be even more concerned about taxpayer money going to support illicit and unwholesome industries and activities.
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memphis
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« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2014, 09:34:44 PM »

And how is one supposed to get by at $1000 a month? That doesn't even cover rent for most people.
People at the poverty line don't get to live solo. Not a judgement value. Just a fact.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2014, 09:35:28 PM »

Who cares?
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morgieb
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« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2014, 10:09:39 PM »

And how is one supposed to get by at $1000 a month? That doesn't even cover rent for most people.

Speak for yourself Ontario boy Wink

As for the question itself; I like minimum incomes, but there's a huge variation in cost of living across the USA. $2100/month might be plenty to live on in Texas (assuming healthcare is covered), and nowhere near enough in some of the major east coast cities.

Would the $2100 be adjusted for cost of living?
Depends on whether you like Coke or not.
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pbrower2a
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« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2014, 10:58:37 PM »

And how is one supposed to get by at $1000 a month? That doesn't even cover rent for most people.

Speak for yourself Ontario boy Wink

As for the question itself; I like minimum incomes, but there's a huge variation in cost of living across the USA. $2100/month might be plenty to live on in Texas (assuming healthcare is covered), and nowhere near enough in some of the major east coast cities.

Would the $2100 be adjusted for cost of living?

Within a state, there may be cheap and expensive places in which to live. New York City is infamously expensive, but rural western New York isn't.  California has some very costly places in which to live -- but the Central Valley isn't costly except for Sacramento.

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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2014, 03:32:18 AM »

I support a guaranteed minimum income + a series of social insurances targeted at specific issues (unemployment, diseases, old age, etc.). So yes, that works for me.
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pbrower2a
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« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2014, 04:47:42 AM »

We are shamefully negligent in spreading the results of our productivity -- and the means of sharing participation in it.
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