Are people from Spain and Portugal "white"?

[VPH]

Sorry to rehash an old topic, but I think that for Portuguese people, the white vs non white dichotomy is best decided on an individual level. Some Portuguese definitely have more Moorish genetic stock than others. (My Dad's uncles for sure) Many from Tras-Os-Montes are decidedly Celtic in ancestry. I always kind of waver on this but describe myself as white, although I guess I could fit into Latino and "other": Portuguese fits me absolutely perfectly.

[politicus]

Yes, being of european descent is the definition of white.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Yes, being of european descent is the definition of white.

For a start, no  (Are Arabs non-White? What about, ehm, Caucasians?)

Second of all, the definition of White in the 1920s would have necessarily have included Southern Europeans.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

A lot of racial theorists used to denigrate the people of Iberia as having been corrupted by African influence, and therefore 'less white' than Northern Europeans. It was actually a fairly pernicious trope in pre-Spanish Civil War right-wing rhetoric that the common poor had Moorish blood, and therefore were less worthy than the landowners. That's why Franco's troops had no qualms with treating their countrymen as they treated tribes under their domain.

[politicus]

Yes, being of European descent is the definition of white.

For a start, no  (Are Arabs non-White? What about, ehm, Caucasians?)

Second of all, the definition of White in the 1920s would have necessarily have included Southern Europeans.

Basic rule: All White are Caucasians, but not all Caucasians are White.

I probably should have said that was the standard European distinction, which is somewhat modified in the Americas (but I think less so in practice than officially). Latin America has the broadest definition of white.

1) In Europe Arabs are non-White no matter their skin colour. This is different in Latin America and maybe also partially in the US (I am a bit sceptical as to whether that is really the case - it seems often to be a mere formal recognition - "they are white, but not white-white". Christian Arabs has generally been considered whiter than Muslims. At least some Australians consider Lebanese as non-White and I get the impression Austrian racial terminology is (still) pretty much the same as the standard European, but not sure.
 
2) Caucasus is a part of Europe, but whether they are socially considered Whites varies a great deal from place to place. I assume Armenians and Georgians would be considered Whites in most contexts by virtue of also being Christians. There has been a clear tendency to consider people from majority Christian countries as White, while people from Muslim populations with roughly equal skin colour are non-White (Greeks are White, Turks are non-White).

3) Not sure about the meaning of your second sentence, but assuming you mean "wouldn't necessarily have included" that was never the case in Scandinavian racial terminology and obviously not in Southern Europe itself. It was more common to omit Iberians and other Mediterraneans in English, but far from universal (but you obviously know more about that). Regarding the Spanish Civil War classicism and hatred of the godless reds + revenge for leftist atrocities against clergy were more than enough reason to treat ordinary people with cruelty. I think the "non-White factor" was fairly marginal and exaggerated. Would be interested in sources that say otherwise, of course.

Anyway, eliminating Southern Europeans as non-Whites must be a thing of the past in Europe. I think the EU and immigration from other continents has contributed to considering all "natives" as Whites. In Latin America this was never a thing. Italians and Greeks are whites in Australia. Then we have the US where the Hispanic label confuses things regarding Iberians (which was our departing point). Still, Italians and Greeks are obviously whites in America.

tl;dr: race is a social construct and it varies a bit, but a person of European ancestry is the basic defintion of White in all Western countries.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

[Stranger in a strange land]

Yes, of course. Let's not be silly.

[Velasco]

What the hell is this question?

Some of them are. Others are olive or saffron.

Are "olive" and "saffron" racial categories for the US Census Bureau?

Sadly, I can't tell you what's the share of 'olive' and 'saffron' people in Iberian countries. There's no way to collect the data in our own registers, for some unknown reason. I only know that our olive oil is excellent (the quality of Spanish oil exceeds by far that of other Mediterranean countries) and we indeed produce saffron (excellent too).

[Lief 🗽]

hahah the Welsh being "Mediterranean" for some reason

[politicus]

Academic racial theories and the social construction of whiteness in everyday interaction were always two different things. Sure, they interacted, but it is of limited use to look at academic definitions when discussing how whiteness functioned. Among other things because skin colour was not the (primary) marker of sub-races.

The construction of a Mediterranean sub-race among British and German racial scientists played a role in legitimizing discrimination of Southern Europeans, but never made Arabs socially white or - stating the obvious - Southern Europeans question their own whiteness. North African colonial society is a testament to both.
The Alpine sub-race is a very bizarre construct that is unlikely to have influenced popular racial perceptions.

Whiteness has been in a constant process of negotiation (with class and religious affiliation influencing it in mixed race societies), but with European = White as the point of reference. Modern American perception of whiteness will increasingly include light skinned Hispanics making the idea that Iberians are non-Whites even weirder.

As mentioned above the EU and outside migration from other continents has consolidated the Mediterranean Sea as a racial barrier in Europe. So mass immigration can work both ways. In the US it will likely be a deciding factor that inclusion of light skinned Hispanics is crucial to securing a continued white majority.

[ingemann]

Yes Iberians are White and BTW here's a picture of a "moor" family



As for the three "races" on the map, those "races" have nothing to little (but not nothing) do with colouring, but are more based on facial bone structure and body type. The primary difference between the Nordic and Alpine "races" as define here, is that Nordics have a long face and skull and alpine broad face and round skull, and that Nordics should be taller and the Alpines smaller and stocky. As for the Mediterranean they should have a long face and skull, but be medium sized in stature and slender.

It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. But 19th century people was obsessive in defining regional difference with superficial physical traits, and the long against the round skull are a very easy way to make a distinction based a regional difference.

[politicus]

hahah the Welsh being "Mediterranean" for some reason

(Presumed) pure Celtic stock (as in Cornwall!) and mainly based on phenotypes. Western Scotland/Western England and Western Ireland are marked as mixed Nordic/Mediterranean for the same reason. His faith in the pure Viking heritage of the Eastern Highlands is funny as well.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

hahah the Welsh being "Mediterranean" for some reason

(Presumed) pure Celtic stock (as in Cornwall!) and mainly based on phenotypes. Western Scotland/Western England and Western Ireland are marked as mixed Nordic/Mediterranean for the same reason. His faith in the pure Viking heritage of the Eastern Highlands is funny as well.

That comes from a book which was used to justify immigration quotas in 1920s America.

Anti-immigration popular sentiment of the period also questioned whether Southern or Eastern Europeans were really white.

[TDAS04]

Yes.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

All Europeans are white! Apart from any European ethnicities that I dislike or have a grudge against, who are not white at all.

There, saved you the effort of reading the vast majority of 19th century racial theorists.