Opinion of Hamas
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Author Topic: Opinion of Hamas  (Read 5780 times)
Indy Texas
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« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2014, 09:56:43 PM »

They're horrible no matter how you slice it, and they actions are indirectly responsible for most of Israel's questionable deeds.

Yeah, none of Israel's "questionable deeds" have anything to do with the fact that Israel is a settler-state hellbent on throwing the Palestinians into the Mediterranean and making the whole region their own, right?

Let's not lob false accusations, TNF. It's the Islamists who want to throw the Israelis into the Mediterranean. The Zionists just want to drive the Palestinians across the river into the Jordanian desert.
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Wake Me Up When The Hard Border Ends
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« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2014, 10:07:04 AM »

Mega-HPs.
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Hatman 🍁
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« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2014, 10:23:27 AM »

Terrorists, just like the Israeli government.
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TNF
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« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2014, 10:27:03 AM »


I'm not a fan of religious parties (especially not theocratic ones), but I'm not about to condemn an organization actually putting up a fight for Palestinians, rather than bending over for Israel, like the PLO has done time and time again since the 1980s. There's a reason Hamas was voted into power in 2006 and there's a reason that it retains popular support. I don't like what it stands for on domestic political questions (and I doubt very many of us do, given that we're all products of a secular society), but that matters less than the fact that they are fighting back against the Zionist settler state, which is more than you can say about the cowards clinging to a 'two-state solution' that is never going to happen.


What is Hamas "fighting back against"? The two-state solution and the "Zionist settler state" i.e. Israel. You can say Hamas are not cowards but you can also say they're war criminals who continuously bring their people nothing but misery. Not that they seem to care. Why did they win elections in 2006? Corruption in Fatah. Why are they still in power? By force.

Hamas is fighting back against the illegal encroachment of Israel onto their land. It is resisting, just as any of us would do were we invaded by a foreign power. To call Hamas terrorists, when they are in fact acting in resistance to those who seek to wipe them out and colonize their lands, is to call those who fought against illegitimate authority in every epoch 'terrorists.'

They're horrible no matter how you slice it, and they actions are indirectly responsible for most of Israel's questionable deeds.

Yeah, none of Israel's "questionable deeds" have anything to do with the fact that Israel is a settler-state hellbent on throwing the Palestinians into the Mediterranean and making the whole region their own, right?

I'm not a fan of religious parties (especially not theocratic ones), but I'm not about to condemn an organization actually putting up a fight for Palestinians, rather than bending over for Israel, like the PLO has done time and time again since the 1980s. There's a reason Hamas was voted into power in 2006 and there's a reason that it retains popular support. I don't like what it stands for on domestic political questions (and I doubt very many of us do, given that we're all products of a secular society), but that matters less than the fact that they are fighting back against the Zionist settler state, which is more than you can say about the cowards clinging to a 'two-state solution' that is never going to happen.
You're ignorance is showing.

Anyway, evil terrorist organisation. Clearly HP.

Excellent argument. Though I don't expect much more from you or any of your fellow apologists for ethnic cleansing in the name of preserving the exclusionary, racist state of Israel.

Terrorists, just like the Israeli government.

This is just not true. The violence employed by an oppressed people cannot and should not ever be equated with the violence employed by their oppressors. Hamas is fighting back; that is resistance, not terrorism. By this logic, the Minutemen of 1776 were terrorists because they resisted the encroachment on their liberties exercised at the behest of the British crown. Just because someone employs violent tactics does not make them a terrorist; it more often than not makes them a realist that understands power relations in society and knows that only through struggle (and often, but not always, armed struggle) can lasting victory be achieved
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Bull Moose Base
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« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2014, 11:32:01 AM »


I'm not a fan of religious parties (especially not theocratic ones), but I'm not about to condemn an organization actually putting up a fight for Palestinians, rather than bending over for Israel, like the PLO has done time and time again since the 1980s. There's a reason Hamas was voted into power in 2006 and there's a reason that it retains popular support. I don't like what it stands for on domestic political questions (and I doubt very many of us do, given that we're all products of a secular society), but that matters less than the fact that they are fighting back against the Zionist settler state, which is more than you can say about the cowards clinging to a 'two-state solution' that is never going to happen.


What is Hamas "fighting back against"? The two-state solution and the "Zionist settler state" i.e. Israel. You can say Hamas are not cowards but you can also say they're war criminals who continuously bring their people nothing but misery. Not that they seem to care. Why did they win elections in 2006? Corruption in Fatah. Why are they still in power? By force.

Hamas is fighting back against the illegal encroachment of Israel onto their land. It is resisting, just as any of us would do were we invaded by a foreign power. To call Hamas terrorists, when they are in fact acting in resistance to those who seek to wipe them out and colonize their lands, is to call those who fought against illegitimate authority in every epoch 'terrorists.'

Terrorists, just like the Israeli government.

This is just not true. The violence employed by an oppressed people cannot and should not ever be equated with the violence employed by their oppressors. Hamas is fighting back; that is resistance, not terrorism. By this logic, the Minutemen of 1776 were terrorists because they resisted the encroachment on their liberties exercised at the behest of the British crown. Just because someone employs violent tactics does not make them a terrorist; it more often than not makes them a realist that understands power relations in society and knows that only through struggle (and often, but not always, armed struggle) can lasting victory be achieved

Not sure why Israelis, citizens of an internationally-recognized country in its 7th decade, should have less right to protect themselves than colonial Americans. But yes, violence alone doesn't make one a terrorist: that would be violence deliberately targeting civilians to create fear and influence policy. In this case, it's hard to believe the rocket attacks are done but for any reason besides provoking retaliatory attacks that kill Palestinians and create political pressure on Israel. In short, in the past, Hamas's political tool was dead Israelis. In the current conflict, it's dead Palestinians: self-terrorism with help from Israel.

Not sure you understand Hamas's motives or the extent of what they define as "their land". They, not unlike fundamentalist Jews or Christians, see it as given by God to them. So to say they're resisting and fighting for their land as any of us would… it's more accurate to say "as any of us would if we too were militant fundamentalists".

As for whether violent attacks on civilians is part of a realistic mindset, it helped create Israel, and the Palestinian refugee problem, and the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and the blockade on Gaza, and has long fueled the cycle of violence bringing misery for Palestinians and Israelis alike and (a criticism that can go both ways) bolstered players on the other side who sabotage the peace process. Anyone who is actually a realist would say violent resistance has been a catastrophic mistake.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2014, 11:38:51 AM »

TNF, you do know what's in Hamas' charter, yes?
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IceSpear
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« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2014, 04:31:43 PM »

ter·ror·ism
ˈterəˌrizəm/
noun
noun: terrorism

    the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

It must take a lot of mental gymnastics to think this doesn't apply to Hamas.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2014, 04:33:11 PM »


You were too optimistic. Wink
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2014, 07:00:47 PM »

ter·ror·ism
ˈterəˌrizəm/
noun
noun: terrorism

    the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

It must take a lot of mental gymnastics to think this doesn't apply to Hamas.

By that definition nearly every military action is terrorism...
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2014, 07:31:24 PM »

Violence is only justified if the person you are fighting against will not respond dialogue/non-violent action. I believe the Israelis would respond to dialogue/non-violent action. There's no way to know though because the Palestinians have never tried it.
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MaxQue
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« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2014, 10:36:07 PM »

Violence is only justified if the person you are fighting against will not respond dialogue/non-violent action. I believe the Israelis would respond to dialogue/non-violent action. There's no way to know though because the Palestinians have never tried it.

Are you joking? It was tried in the 90's and worked until those extremists settlers assassinated Rabin.
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Velasco
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« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2014, 02:05:09 AM »
« Edited: August 01, 2014, 05:36:11 AM by Velasco »

Not sure why Israelis, citizens of an internationally-recognized country in its 7th decade, should have less right to protect themselves than colonial Americans. But yes, violence alone doesn't make one a terrorist: that would be violence deliberately targeting civilians to create fear and influence policy. In this case, it's hard to believe the rocket attacks are done but for any reason besides provoking retaliatory attacks that kill Palestinians and create political pressure on Israel. In short, in the past, Hamas's political tool was dead Israelis. In the current conflict, it's dead Palestinians: self-terrorism with help from Israel.

It's not that I agree with TNF on Hamas but, in which book is written that "the right to protect themselves" justify state terrorism? Because a democratic and "internationally-recognized" state is supposed to fight terrorism by 'legal' and 'proportionate' means, instead of bombing hospitals or killing kids while they play football on a beach. Such retaliations are not only criminal and obscene, they do nothing to protect the citizens of Israel from Hamas rockets. Talking of 'human shields' in this context is nothing but a macabre joke. It's possible that you are right in saying that Hamas provokes retaliatory attacks in its own benefit, but it's hard to believe that the same retaliation is nothing but another 'political tool'. I don't understand how some people can call on others to condemn Hamas when, on the other hand, justify the Israeli government in the name of the right to 'self-defense'.

Violence is only justified if the person you are fighting against will not respond dialogue/non-violent action. I believe the Israelis would respond to dialogue/non-violent action. There's no way to know though because the Palestinians have never tried it.

Are you joking? It was tried in the 90's and worked until those extremists settlers assassinated Rabin.

It sounds like a joke, indeed.
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2014, 04:11:53 AM »

The latest round of rocket attacks were retaliation for an Israeli airstrike meant directly to provoke them--combined with the fact that we now know that the kidnapping was a lone wolf attack and that the Netanyahu regime knew from the beginning that the kids were dead, declaring Hamas more terroristic than Israel is difficult.
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ingemann
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« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2014, 04:54:56 AM »

Violence is only justified if the person you are fighting against will not respond dialogue/non-violent action. I believe the Israelis would respond to dialogue/non-violent action. There's no way to know though because the Palestinians have never tried it.

Are you joking? It was tried in the 90's and worked until those extremists settlers assassinated Rabin.

...and started a shooting spree in a mosque.

Of course Bibi restarting the settlements didn't help either.
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2014, 02:05:20 PM »

Clearly HP, an evil organization directed by radical religiosity, just like Israel, by not caring about innocent civilians.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2014, 04:30:39 PM »

The latest round of rocket attacks were retaliation for an Israeli airstrike meant directly to provoke them--combined with the fact that we now know that the kidnapping was a lone wolf attack and that the Netanyahu regime knew from the beginning that the kids were dead, declaring Hamas more terroristic than Israel is difficult.

I would point out that Hamas actually welcomed the killings.
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Cassius
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« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2014, 04:52:33 PM »

Violence is only justified if the person you are fighting against will not respond dialogue/non-violent action. I believe the Israelis would respond to dialogue/non-violent action. There's no way to know though because the Palestinians have never tried it.

Are you joking? It was tried in the 90's and worked until those extremists settlers assassinated Rabin.

Rabin wasn't assassinated by settlers though...
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Stranger in a strange land
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« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2014, 09:16:41 PM »

No. No qualifications or equivocations. They're just horrible people. For the record, I don't support what Israel is doing in Gaza right now, but that doesn't change the fact that Hamas is a horrible organization.
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MyRescueKittehRocks
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« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2014, 11:27:23 PM »


I second this.
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2014, 02:41:57 PM »

No. No qualifications or equivocations. They're just horrible people. For the record, I don't support what Israel is doing in Gaza right now, but that doesn't change the fact that Hamas is a horrible organization.

Hamas wouldn't have been elected if not for the continued occupation and repression by the illegal settler state. I don't approve of their Islamism or their general domestic policy within Gaza, but I have no problems with their choice of violent resistance (given that the missiles have no targeting whatsoever, have almost entirely landed in the desert, and began the missile attacks as a response to an Israeli airstrike in Gaza and the killing of a teenager in the West Bank).
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Simfan34
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« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2014, 03:11:34 PM »

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Makes as much sense.
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2014, 03:16:43 PM »

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Makes as much sense.

There is an analogy to be made between Israel and South Africa. That is not the correct one.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2014, 03:26:36 PM »

Say what you want about Israel, it doesn't justify lobbing rockets at towns. If you do that, you're an HP. Not hard.
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Хahar 🤔
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« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2014, 03:31:02 PM »

It's not immediately clear to me where he'll fit in a lineup that already has Ronaldo and Gareth Bale.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2014, 03:34:23 PM »

Also, the trope of the "illegitimate settler-state" begs the question of what alternative you would have suggested for the Jews in 1947. Because there clearly was an issue.
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