Talk with Hashemite about some history topics
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Author Topic: Talk with Hashemite about some history topics  (Read 1713 times)
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Hashemite
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« on: July 14, 2014, 04:16:13 PM »

Following the trend, bring up a topic I know about and let's talk about it - my interests and knowledge are post-1900 South African history (especially Afrikaner nationalism, whites-only politics and elections, NP internal politics, apartheid, anti-apartheid movements, the ANC, the transition etc), post-1945 French political history and Canadian history in general. I also know stuff about Colombia, Chile, the Basque Country, Saudi Arabia and Greek Cypriots (random). So, let's chat about this stuff Smiley
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2014, 04:20:37 PM »

What were the major differences between the right wing parties in the 4th republic?
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Cassius
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2014, 04:38:07 PM »

What would you say were the main differences between Herzog's Herstigte (I hope I spelled that correctly) Nasionale Partei and Treurnicht's KP? Was the latter simply an enlarged version of the former? I'm asking because I was under the impression that whereas the HNP was a vehicle for really old style Afrikaner nationalism and 'Baaskap', the KP (whilst still being very racist) was less rooted in that particular... tradition, so to speak (I believe that they - very unsucessfully - tried to put out feelers to the English speaking community).
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2014, 08:52:48 PM »

What would you say were the main differences between Herzog's Herstigte (I hope I spelled that correctly) Nasionale Partei and Treurnicht's KP? Was the latter simply an enlarged version of the former? I'm asking because I was under the impression that whereas the HNP was a vehicle for really old style Afrikaner nationalism and 'Baaskap', the KP (whilst still being very racist) was less rooted in that particular... tradition, so to speak (I believe that they - very unsucessfully - tried to put out feelers to the English speaking community).

The differences between the HNP and KP were indeed quite blurry and there was a ton of overlap between both parties on issues which actually mattered, and they emerged from a similar broad faction in the NP (Transvaal-based verkrampte and Verwoerdians), their electoral base was similar (predominantly Transvaalian or OFS lower middle-class, Afrikaner petite bourgeoisie and the Afrikaner working-classes; with weak support with the Afrikaner elites and Anglos) and ended in similar places (intransigence and reactionary idiocy). But I think we can spot a few differences in ideology, political cultures/party identities and actors:

(a) Albert Hertzog's HNP, I would say, came from the Transvaal's extra-parliamentary hardline nationalist tradition of the post-Fusion era (recall that Fusion had been successful in Transvaal and the OFS, leaving Malan's GNP with only a small base around JG Strijdom; the Malanite GNP was a Cape party with all that entails in terms of culture and identity). It was in that tradition in which Hertzog and others (HF Verwoerd, Nic Diederichs, PJ Meyer) made their mark as Potchefstroom academics and Broers (the Afrikaner Broederbond being the structuring force and a tireless defender of elusive volkseenheid during broedertwis) and active in the extra-parliamentary movement prior to 1948 (he was famously the leader of the 'Christian national assault on trade unions'). It's obvious that father and son had very major ideological differences and Hertzogite Sr. nationalism was very different from Jr's nationalism - Hertzog's nationalism was always a 'two stream' nationalism (white unity with the Afrikaner and English streams maintaining their culture, language, traditions etc separately) which was very soft on republicanism (one of the major reasons why the Herenigde NP reunion in 1939-40 failed was the suspicions of the Strijdom/Verwoerd et al gesuiwerdes wrt to Hertzog's softness on republicanism; besides his unforgivable 'betrayal' in Fusion with the arch-enemy which was 'Hoggenheimer'); his son was a radical nationalist who hated the Anglos (who had no culture and were suspicious liberals and softies with the blacks and commies, who would lead to the death of white civilization in Seff Efrika if they weren't guided by the freedom-loving Calvinist Afrikaners), all non-whites (Barry Hertzog was an arch-racist o/c but I feel as if he might have been 'evolving' if he was a 1970s politician) and the Jews/capitalists/communists/liberals (all blended into one). However, we shouldn't forget that Barry Hertzog, after 1940, moved towards a fascist ideology which opposed capitalism, parties, parliamentary democracy etc (things which Malan never repudiated). I would say that Hertzog's HNP kind of fits into the mold set by Oswald Pirow's Nuwe Orde (effectively a Hertzogite fascist party) and even more with the Ossewabrandwag (minus the OB's extreme militarism and Nazism) - republican, anti-British, white supremacist and Transvaalian petty bourgeois. For example, the Bond in 1941 got Malan's Herenigde Nats and the OB to pretend to sign a silly 'draft republican constitution' which went the OB's way notably by relegating English to a secondary status; Malan hated the constitution and quickly denounced it and told the OB to eff off, but Verwoerd endorsed it (despite being a pro-Malan and anti-NO/OB gesuiwerde). Hertzog himself had been neutral in the Malanite HNP vs. OB battle in the early war years; one of those future Nats who were either openly pro-Nazi/OB (Vorster) during the war or were volkseenheid-obsessed neutrals on the fence between both.

(b) So yes, the HNP represented a radical and intransigent faction of Afrikaner nationalism which took its roots in the Transvaal's radical, petty bourgeois and extra-parliamentary nationalism of the Fusion/War years. The HNP was a proto-verkrampte/Verwoerdian faction which was attached to outdated old nationalism (based on traditional values of the Afrikaners as a society of farmers and poor whites, and the old Calvinist 'chosen people' visions in which the Afrikaners have principles and 'recognize' the 'natural' division of peoples, and who fight for the preservation of white civilization and must be the one who leads the fight), hardened racism and traditional anti-capitalism (Hertzog being a 'Strasser' within the NP with more or less genuine anti-capitalism and a focus on organizing the Afrikaner working-class as a precondition for the triumph of nationalism and the economic movement). However, I posit that even Verwoerd had been moving away from the future HNP's platform after the 1960 referendum: he remained a hard-core racist who was suspicious of modern capitalism but he laid the bases for the post-1966 shift of NP nationalism from 'Afrikaner nationalism' to racial nationalism (white unity, reconciliation between Anglos and Afrikaners in the fight for white civilization in Seff Efrika, albeit led by the Afrikaners - but a new elite thereof) and friendlier ties with black Africa (remember that Vorster's détente with black Africa was one of the things which prompted the HNP split).

(c) In contrast, the KP emerged at a later date and was prompted by more contemporary and pressing concerns in Afrikaner nationalism: the necessity (or danger, for some) of reform and flexibility, the changing class bases of Afrikaner nationalism, the growing verligte vs verkrampte split and how to ensure the survival of white minority rule (Botha: by coopting pliable non-whites and mild reform while kicking the sh**t out of any opponents; Treurnicht: by reemphasizing the white character of the RSA in the face of swart gevaar and maintaining rigid apartheid). Sure, by definition, Treurnicht's gang fit in the traditional cross-class Afrikaner nationalist alliance vision (and therefore emphasized Afrikanerdom and stuff) while Botha and the verligtes were clearly moving towards the white elite alliance (with the added symbolism of a few useful idiots/'Uncle Toms'/corrupt and coopted non-white elites); but the KP lacked the huge obsession with hating the Anglos as dirty liberal Jewish communist imperialist capitalists. One of the ideological reasons why the KP and HNP often failed to ally with one another was because the KP opposed Afrikaans unilingualism and the repatriation of Indians (an outlandish and horrible idea which was early NP policy until the 1960s or so). And yeah, the KP did have a few Anglo members (and didn't hate them (but wasn't a fan of them in general), unlike the HNP.

(d) I would add that there was, beyond the intricate ideological differences, a generational difference between Hertzog and Treurnicht. The former was from the pre-1948 founding generation identified closely with the construction of nationalism, the Fusion trauma, the war, the division, the fight for power etc; the latter was born in 1921 who became active in politics post-1948. The KP was also the product of NP personal conflicts: it was joined by BJ Vorster (Botha's rival), Connie Mulder (Botha's leader for the hoofleierskap in 1978, an ally of Vorster and later of Muldergate infamy), Jimmy Kruger (the verkrampte justice minister of Steve Biko infamy, who got focked over by Botha's abolition of the Senate) and the Verwoerd family (parts of it, those who defended the legacy and saw Botha as a traitor). The HNP had a complicated relation with the KP - they liked that others in the NP had 'come around' but they still saw themselves as the purists and original defenders of the faith (and the KP were late to the party).

(e) Later on, the KP became a parliamentary party until the very end who defended 'minority rights'/opposed majority rule and allied itself with blacks (the IFP, Ciskei and Bop) and whites (other parts of the far-right constellation) in the transition years to do so; the HNP was an intransigent party which likely balked at the idea of allying with blacks and refused to settle for a Volkstaat (which is what the KP ended up defending as the least-worst option, along with Viljoen's VF and others, although the KP was the more radical and intransigent of the least radical and intransigent parties Cheesy). The KP folded up quickly after 1994 (it didn't run in 94 but did run in the first local elections in 95-96) and fractions of the old KP ended up migrating towards the VF+ (Carel Boshoff, most notably); the HNP still exists as a very tiny white supremacist (KKK-like)/arch-racist party which refuses to endorse the new RSA (it doesn't run in elections, obviously) and opposes the Volkstaat because it will settle for nothing less than the whole of Seff Efrika minus the old homelands for the whites. Both the KP and HNP had ties with other parts of the far-right constellation in the 1990s, like the AWB.

This is without mentioning obvious differences in popular support, contexts in which these parties emerged, generic rivalries between extremist parties sharing similar ideologies, resources etc...

TL;DR: you're mostly right (although I'd say baaskap was not unique to the HNP; all Afrikaner parties endorsed it more or less). Workers of the world unite, and fight for a white South Africa!
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Mopsus
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« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2014, 10:43:04 AM »

What would you say to someone who insists that the treatment of whites in Zimbabwe amounts to "white genocide"? (Yes, I'm trolling; humor me, pls)
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Nhoj
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« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2014, 10:57:22 AM »

Was Mackenzie King insane? or just a loveable oddball.
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