MUH TARIFFS

[beaver2.0]

...There are actual people on this forum defending the existence of and supporting the idea of fighting for a nation based entirely on slavery.

No.  This not quite what I meant.

I've deleted my post.

[beaver2.0]

Further proof that Mississippi was a huge mistake and needs to be carpet bombed pronto.

However, I do not think carpet bombing and genociding Mississippi is exactly a great idea.

[beaver2.0]

...There are actual people on this forum defending the existence of and supporting the idea of fighting for a nation based entirely on slavery.

Come on, you're actually telling me that you would allow your home to be destroyed for the sake of a war which, as its prosecutors made clear, was not being waged to abolish slavery? You're aware that around 70-80% of Southerners at the time did not own slaves, right?

The war was pretty clearly about slavery.  What do you think it was about?

[beaver2.0]

RINOs.

The Union forever! Hurrah, boys, hurrah!
Down with the traitors, up with the stars;
While we rally round the flag, boys, rally once again,
Shouting the battle cry of freedom!

I know, that is what I was thinking.

[beaver2.0]

Even in a peaceful secession, the Confederacy would be a 3rd world country from day one.

Ummm...not even close.

If you took the states that seceded and imagine them asa new country, it would be the world's 4th largest economy with a nominal GDP of 4.86 trillion per year.  That makes it larger than the "First world" countries of Germany, France, the UK and Canada.  With a population of 101 million people (which would make it the world's 12th most populous country, and bump the U.S. down to the number 4 spot) it would have a GDP/capita of $48,118 per year.  This puts the CSA in the 7th spot with a higher GDP/capita than Switzerland, Canada, Australia, the Netherlands, Sweden, Kuwait and Denmark to name a few.

Hardly a Third World country in my book.  Wouldn't you agree?

  

Assuming it gained independence in the Ciil War, it has an economy heavily based off agriculture, a vast segment of the society enslaved and treated pretty badly as well as a lot of poor whites.  The CSA is going to need to get its act together and start industrializing.  The US, meanwhile, will probably want the place back. The US can support a large standing army, and, with its immigration polciies, will continue growing.  The CS needs a large standing army, but if you spend all the money on that, you can't industrialize.  Without foreign gaurruntees to its defense, or assistance in industrializing, it will eventually economically collapse.  Likely, that will lead to full on slave revolts, or a revolution by the lower class white, wanting to not be poor as dirt.  Then, in a civil war, they will have to fend off the US.  It's survival just doesn't seem likely.

[beaver2.0]

Even in a peaceful secession, the Confederacy would be a 3rd world country from day one.

Ummm...not even close.

If you took the states that seceded and imagine them asa new country, it would be the world's 4th largest economy with a nominal GDP of 4.86 trillion per year.  That makes it larger than the "First world" countries of Germany, France, the UK and Canada.  With a population of 101 million people (which would make it the world's 12th most populous country, and bump the U.S. down to the number 4 spot) it would have a GDP/capita of $48,118 per year.  This puts the CSA in the 7th spot with a higher GDP/capita than Switzerland, Canada, Australia, the Netherlands, Sweden, Kuwait and Denmark to name a few.

Hardly a Third World country in my book.  Wouldn't you agree?

   

Assuming it gained independence in the Ciil War, it has an economy heavily based off agriculture, a vast segment of the society enslaved and treated pretty badly as well as a lot of poor whites.  The CSA is going to need to get its act together and start industrializing.  The US, meanwhile, will probably want the place back. The US can support a large standing army, and, with its immigration polciies, will continue growing.  The CS needs a large standing army, but if you spend all the money on that, you can't industrialize.  Without foreign gaurruntees to its defense, or assistance in industrializing, it will eventually economically collapse.  Likely, that will lead to full on slave revolts, or a revolution by the lower class white, wanting to not be poor as dirt.  Then, in a civil war, they will have to fend off the US.  It's survival just doesn't seem likely.

You missed the point.

If the 11 states of the Confederacy decided to secede again today, they would immediately be a major player on the international stage both politically and economically.

And even in an alternate universe where the South does win its independence back in the 1860s, there's no reason to believe that it wouldn't have eventually industrialized and modernized in a way that would make into a world player.  The United States was itself vastly agrarian economy for most of its early history as well, after all.  European powers would have had a vested interest in seeing the CSA succeed, as it means a weaker United States, and would have supported it financially and militarily until it was able to stand on its on.

Also, with a notably less Anglo population due to the South having seceded, the United States probably doesn't come to the Allies aid during WWI and the CSA takes on the role as Western Europe's premier American ally.     

If the south became independent today, I admit it does have some stuff going for it, but I would expect counter-secession by Virginia north of the Rappohannock and the Miami region.  The south might survive a while until it's libertarian and paleo-con policies destroyed it.

The south might survive for a while post-1860s, but it has such a late start on industrialization that the US would be ahead of it, and it would eventually lose the industry race.

Well, the US' vast industrial power and large population were what helped the Allies in WW1, even if the south industrialized, it is too small to ever have anything matching the US' in 1917, and I don't know if the CS could provide the kind of forces needed to break the lines in Europe.  Especially with so many needed back home to prevent civil war.

[beaver2.0]

I think most people would support their state if it seceded for whatever reason. I don't endorse Florida leaving the Union and would vote "no" in a referendum on the subject for a variety of reasons, but if the "yes" campaign wins out and we do secede in this hypothetical situation, I'm going to be a citizen of the Republic of Florida.

I agree with Del Tachi on the CSA being a world power if it left the Union in 2014, though I also have to give Cory credit-the CSA of the Civil War would not have survived, and had the south won the war, the slavery situation would have to be addressed by the 1880s, or a violent bloodbath could have broken out that would have made Reconstruction look good in comparison.

I agree with the first paragraph.

But honestly, the south seceding today would lose many important areas, and its economy would eventually go down the drain and probably be peacefully reannexed by the US.

[beaver2.0]

I think most people would support their state if it seceded for whatever reason. I don't endorse Florida leaving the Union and would vote "no" in a referendum on the subject for a variety of reasons, but if the "yes" campaign wins out and we do secede in this hypothetical situation, I'm going to be a citizen of the Republic of Florida.

I agree with Del Tachi on the CSA being a world power if it left the Union in 2014, though I also have to give Cory credit-the CSA of the Civil War would not have survived, and had the south won the war, the slavery situation would have to be addressed by the 1880s, or a violent bloodbath could have broken out that would have made Reconstruction look good in comparison.

I agree with the first paragraph.

But honestly, the south seceding today would lose many important areas, and its economy would eventually go down the drain and probably be peacefully reannexed by the US.

The South today is already a major hub of sex slavery. The CSA would probably replace Russia as the world's human trafficing center.

I wonder what they would do with their stretch of the Texan border.

[beaver2.0]

I think most people would support their state if it seceded for whatever reason. I don't endorse Florida leaving the Union and would vote "no" in a referendum on the subject for a variety of reasons, but if the "yes" campaign wins out and we do secede in this hypothetical situation, I'm going to be a citizen of the Republic of Florida.

I agree with Del Tachi on the CSA being a world power if it left the Union in 2014, though I also have to give Cory credit-the CSA of the Civil War would not have survived, and had the south won the war, the slavery situation would have to be addressed by the 1880s, or a violent bloodbath could have broken out that would have made Reconstruction look good in comparison.

I agree with the first paragraph.

But honestly, the south seceding today would lose many important areas, and its economy would eventually go down the drain and probably be peacefully reannexed by the US.

The South today is already a major hub of sex slavery. The CSA would probably replace Russia as the world's human trafficing center.

I wonder what they would do with their stretch of the Texan border.

If the kids fled into the CSA, I'd hate to know what would happen to them...

There probably would be a wall.  The real problem would be people fleeing the CSA.

[beaver2.0]

The ever changing nature of the title of this thread is quite annoying.