The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread
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Author Topic: The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread  (Read 66327 times)
Simfan34
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« on: July 16, 2014, 01:48:06 PM »

I am making this thread for two reasons.

1) Dead0man is just running rampant over the other one.

2) Because this happens so often why bother making a new one every time? See below:



http://www.jjmccullough.com/index.php/2010/06/04/generic-israel-comic/
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2014, 02:41:51 PM »
« Edited: July 16, 2014, 02:52:39 PM by D.A.G. Snowstalker »

Please do not post that idiot's comics here. We're above that.

In other news, the colonists continue to murder children en masse. And the Israeli left is being suppressed by an alliance of cops and brownshirts.
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Cassius
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« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2014, 04:11:56 PM »

Yes Snowstalker. Civilians die in war. An unpleasant and unfortunate fact, but a fact nonetheless. Its something that happens in every war; for instance, in the Second World War, we on the Allied side, both in the West and the East, must have killed a fair number of civilians ourselves. In the case of the Soviets, some of that was deliberate, one thing we can definitely say that the IDF does not do. Indeed, the IDF actually goes out of its way to try and limit civilian casualties; an onerous task that is not helped by Hamas making a habit of using its own 'countrymen' as human shields. The Israelis utilise a variety of methods to do this; including warning civilians of impending bombardment (through the use of leaflet drops and 'scare' bombs), as well as doing its best to garner adequate intelligence on the targets that may be bombed. The fact is, this doesn't always work. Also, your description of these Israelis as 'settlers' is rather misleading, given that this in fact is the IDF that is undertaking these bombardments. Indeed, the only free lance killers that I can observe are Hamas themselves.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2014, 05:34:00 PM »
« Edited: July 16, 2014, 05:39:43 PM by Simfan34 »

Please do not post that idiot's comics here. We're above that.

"That idiot?" I'm surprised you (people?) even know of him, he's hardly a "big" name. But you're quite wrong here, I've been following the comic for around a decade at this point I find him to be right on target with most things; not always, but most of the time. Then again, what you consider to be sensibility I imagine most others would call "utter madness", and vice versa.

I makes a pointed effort to avoid forming opinions on Israel-Palestine issues, if only because people get so emotionally invested in them to a level where I can't possibly keep up. Something like 30% of the population of my school, and 50% of the women's college across the street are Jews (and I'm not counting the Jewish college just north of here, either), and Palestine's been a cause celebre amongst the left since George Habash, and they are crawling all over this place, so they might as well be a lot of Palestinians here. And I have no desire to get into that mess. But I have a question or two, because I feel too ignorant at the moment.

1. It isn't entirely clear who started bombing whom. The Times makes it look like Israel started it as a response to the killing of the teenagers, when the BBC states flatly "Hamas claimed responsibility for firing rockets for the first time in 20 months" to which the Israelis responded with their campaign.

2. Israel is bombing Gaza as to cripple Hamas' ability to bomb them. But why is Hamas bombing Israel, anyway? What exactly is Hamas trying to hit? Or is Hamas really just firing randomly? Because they've apparently been hitting themselves a lot, so you would think they have a goal if they're going to mount such a costly campaign.

3. It is known/claimed that Hamas is storing its weapons in civilian areas and instructing people to disregard Israeli warnings that they are going to conduct strikes- apparently even the Israelis can even call people on their cell phones! You begin to get the idea Hamas doesn't really care that much about the lives of Gazans. Is this not true, then what is Israel trying to hit?

4. This is somewhat unrelated but I'll ask anyway- how does Israel justify building all these settlements in the West Bank? I understand why they would exist- there wasn't really any entity that could claim to be a sovereign Palestine until the Oslo Accords- but how can they still build new ones if they acknowledge that they areas they are being built in are Palestinian?

5. Israeli Arabs? How/why do they exist? How did they get citizenship in the first place as opposed to other Palestinians?
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2014, 05:36:03 PM »

You know that I am far, far from being a Zionist, but this is absurd. These four children died because Hamas decided they would launch scores of rockets into Israel. The Israelis were right to retialiate. If Mexico decided to randomly launch rockets at America, I'd want to bomb the hell out of the border towns. These four children died because of Hamas.

That being said, why is Hamas launching rockets to begin with? That is a fair question, but the actions of Hamas are not justified by their cause.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2014, 05:55:56 PM »

You know that I am far, far from being a Zionist, but this is absurd. These four children died because Hamas decided they would launch scores of rockets into Israel. The Israelis were right to retialiate. If Mexico decided to randomly launch rockets at America, I'd want to bomb the hell out of the border towns. These four children died because of Hamas.

That being said, why is Hamas launching rockets to begin with? That is a fair question, but the actions of Hamas are not justified by their cause.

What does that mean? People talk about "anti-Zionism" a fair amount but do they really think that the Israelis should just pack their bags and leave the country? I've asked this before, but do you really believe Israel should not exist because this is Palestinian land? How is that any different from what the Israelis (besides the 1300-year-odd difference between their "presence") did in claiming the land for themselves?
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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2014, 06:10:47 PM »

You know that I am far, far from being a Zionist, but this is absurd. These four children died because Hamas decided they would launch scores of rockets into Israel. The Israelis were right to retialiate. If Mexico decided to randomly launch rockets at America, I'd want to bomb the hell out of the border towns. These four children died because of Hamas.

That being said, why is Hamas launching rockets to begin with? That is a fair question, but the actions of Hamas are not justified by their cause.

What does that mean? People talk about "anti-Zionism" a fair amount but do they really think that the Israelis should just pack their bags and leave the country? I've asked this before, but do you really believe Israel should not exist because this is Palestinian land? How is that any different from what the Israelis (besides the 1300-year-odd difference between their "presence") did in claiming the land for themselves?
In hindsight, I think the Middle East would have been off if Israel was not established in the Holy Land, but now that they are established, they shouldn't be forced out. They have every right to fight for their land, and I commend them for doing it.
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PiMp DaDdy FitzGerald
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2014, 06:18:07 PM »

This whole conflict is essntially the radical Palestinians and radical Israelis killing each other with the moderates being unwilling to reign them in.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2014, 06:44:00 PM »
« Edited: July 16, 2014, 06:53:51 PM by Simfan34 »

You know that I am far, far from being a Zionist, but this is absurd. These four children died because Hamas decided they would launch scores of rockets into Israel. The Israelis were right to retialiate. If Mexico decided to randomly launch rockets at America, I'd want to bomb the hell out of the border towns. These four children died because of Hamas.

That being said, why is Hamas launching rockets to begin with? That is a fair question, but the actions of Hamas are not justified by their cause.

What does that mean? People talk about "anti-Zionism" a fair amount but do they really think that the Israelis should just pack their bags and leave the country? I've asked this before, but do you really believe Israel should not exist because this is Palestinian land? How is that any different from what the Israelis (besides the 1300-year-odd difference between their "presence") did in claiming the land for themselves?

In hindsight, I think the Middle East would have been off if Israel was not established in the Holy Land, but now that they are established, they shouldn't be forced out. They have every right to fight for their land, and I commend them for doing it.

But isn't that... Zionism? Had Mandatory Palestine become just another Arab Republic (Would it have, though?- all the British colonies in the Middle East were monarchies at independence) we wouldn't have all these issues surrounding Israel per se, yes. But I imagine any sort of Arab Republic/Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine would move very quickly to prohibit further immigration and at least attempt expelling Jews (or "recent settlers" as I'd imagine it'd be put) not long after. And of course there is the matter of what happens to the European Jews, who are not particularly inclined to remain where they are after what happened to them...
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traininthedistance
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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2014, 06:52:26 PM »
« Edited: July 16, 2014, 07:01:52 PM by traininthedistance »

2. Israel is bombing Gaza as to cripple Hamas' ability to bomb them. But why is Hamas bombing Israel, anyway? What exactly is Hamas trying to hit? Or is Hamas really just firing randomly? Because they've apparently been hitting themselves a lot, so you would think they have a goal if they're going to mount such a costly campaign.

I think the theory that the real target of Hamas' bombing is Egyptian public opinion, with an eye towards opening the Rafah crossing into Egypt and getting a chunk of cash to meet payroll, is a pretty compelling one.  Though I don't claim to be an expert, nor do I have any stomach to become one on this issue.

Please do not post that idiot's comics here. We're above that.

Big talk given your last sig. Tongue
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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2014, 07:34:12 PM »

You know that I am far, far from being a Zionist, but this is absurd. These four children died because Hamas decided they would launch scores of rockets into Israel. The Israelis were right to retialiate. If Mexico decided to randomly launch rockets at America, I'd want to bomb the hell out of the border towns. These four children died because of Hamas.

That being said, why is Hamas launching rockets to begin with? That is a fair question, but the actions of Hamas are not justified by their cause.

What does that mean? People talk about "anti-Zionism" a fair amount but do they really think that the Israelis should just pack their bags and leave the country? I've asked this before, but do you really believe Israel should not exist because this is Palestinian land? How is that any different from what the Israelis (besides the 1300-year-odd difference between their "presence") did in claiming the land for themselves?

In hindsight, I think the Middle East would have been off if Israel was not established in the Holy Land, but now that they are established, they shouldn't be forced out. They have every right to fight for their land, and I commend them for doing it.

But isn't that... Zionism? Had Mandatory Palestine become just another Arab Republic (Would it have, though?- all the British colonies in the Middle East were monarchies at independence) we wouldn't have all these issues surrounding Israel per se, yes. But I imagine any sort of Arab Republic/Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine would move very quickly to prohibit further immigration and at least attempt expelling Jews (or "recent settlers" as I'd imagine it'd be put) not long after. And of course there is the matter of what happens to the European Jews, who are not particularly inclined to remain where they are after what happened to them...
I wouldn't call my views Zionism. I'm not willing to die for Israel's existence, and if a miracle happens and they are overrun by the Arabs, I'd only be willing to support a humanitarian evacuation, not an invasion to restore the nation of Israel. They seem to be doing a good job holding their own anyway.

As for what would happen post World War II, I'd say that the current situation-the wars every three years with the Gaza Strip, the risk of a nuclear confrontation between Israel and her neighbors, the 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973 wars all outweigh the potential humanitarian situation between Jewish settlers and an independent Arab Palestine. But that is all in the past, and nothing can change the fact that Israel exists and has a right to defend themselves.
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JohnCA246
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2014, 08:30:17 PM »

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Isn't this the problem? People keep valuing the death of "their own" as more important. Let's reverse the situation. What if Mexico destroyed some US border towns because some Americans fired rockets at them? I'm sure the "minutemen" would probably escalate things and retaliate. Then Mexico retaliates. It just seems like this crisis is so human.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2014, 08:57:39 PM »

Well it's not "some Mexicans", you see. It's the government of the Republic of Texas.
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« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2014, 09:46:20 PM »

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Isn't this the problem? People keep valuing the death of "their own" as more important. Let's reverse the situation. What if Mexico destroyed some US border towns because some Americans fired rockets at them? I'm sure the "minutemen" would probably escalate things and retaliate. Then Mexico retaliates. It just seems like this crisis is so human.
Of course people value the death of their own as more important. That is human nature. Should we not have responded to 9/11?

Now, if America is the aggressor, I'd oppose our future responses. Just like I have opposed American aggression in the past, most recently in Libya. In fact, the fixating I do on Benghazi is the fact that we had a presence in Benghazi to begin with, and that terrorism is in response to our presence in the Middle East.

Well it's not "some Mexicans", you see. It's the government of the Republic of Texas.
I don’t quite get what you are saying here. It seems your being contradictory, but maybe I just assumed you had certain political views and never heard your further commentary on the Israel-Palestine.
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Foucaulf
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« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2014, 11:34:16 PM »

I don't like talking about this issue much - people either frame it exclusively in IR or ethical terms, without weighing both perspectives - but I'll say a few things.

"Israel's right to defend themselves” and "Israel's right to fight for their land" are two different things. Of course Israel has the right to defend itself - it's called the Iron Dome, and it has been working very well (zero long-range missile related deaths so far). Israel's right to fight for their land is a much harder issue, because we cannot agree on what "Israel's land" is. Jerusalem would think it's Jewish settlements in the West Bank, Golan, plus effective control of Gaza.

It's not as relevant who exactly started the missile launches this iteration. The fact that Israel has staged a naval blockade around Gaza for years is sufficient grounds for military retaliation.

I remember going to a lecture by John Mearsheimer - IR realist at Chicago - and he answered a question about the future of Israel. He made an interesting point about how the current climate in Israel will continue to drag policies rightwards, up to the point where American Jews and similar audiences can no longer support the state. That will be the breaking point of sorts. It seems to me that more and more people are indulging in these "long run" solutions to the conflict (think also people who predict Israeli demographic collapse). The theories may be right, but they all sound so indulgent, fielded by those never in a hurry.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2014, 12:19:23 AM »

Well it's not "some Mexicans", you see. It's the government of the Republic of Texas.
I don’t quite get what you are saying here. It seems your being contradictory, but maybe I just assumed you had certain political views and never heard your further commentary on the Israel-Palestine.


That should have been "some Americans", not Mexicans.

The Palestinians never secured their borders. Look where they are now.

HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh

The only thing I get from this post is anti-Semitism.
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dead0man
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« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2014, 02:55:29 AM »

1. It isn't entirely clear who started bombing whom. The Times makes it look like Israel started it as a response to the killing of the teenagers, when the BBC states flatly "Hamas claimed responsibility for firing rockets for the first time in 20 months" to which the Israelis responded with their campaign.
The Times is wrong.  Timeline:
1.On 12Jun14 the 3 teens were kidnapped and murdered.
2.Israeli cops start looking for the asshats/and start rounding up bad guys they let go in the Gilad Shalit "deal".
3.meanwhile, there had been rockets out of Gaza everyday (save 5 days, 80 rockets on 1 July was the high mark) between the kidnapping and the Israeli response which came on....
4.8Jul14 the sh**t hit the fan
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Their best rocketeers don't fire "randomly".  They have a target (normally civilian) in mind and fire in that general direction.  The worst of them are truely random, aimed in some direction not towards the sea and fired (on a timer so they ain't there when the retaliation comes and from the roof of a grade school, so they can maybe get some dead kids to further their PR campaign).  And yes, that does explain why (as of yesterday morning) 118 rockets failed to even leave the strip, 2 of which have blown up the electrical towers coming in from Israel knocking out power to 20% of Gaza (yes, Israel is still providing electricity to Gaza....the monsters!).
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Hamas doesn't care at all about the lives of Gazans, that has to be fairly obvious to anybody even halfassed paying attention.  The IDF, despite all the rhetoric from the other side, cares more about civilians in Gaza than Hamas does.
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I'm with you there.  The settlements should stop.
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All the Arabs that didn't flee in '47 have normal rights in Israel.  They vote, they have passports, they can be elected to the Knesset, they aren't drafted but can join the IDF, they are generally doing better than Arabs in Arab countries.  Yes, sadly they do face discrimination, it's not the perfect situation but:
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2014, 06:57:31 AM »

My contribution is: I ABSOLUTELY HATE both sides of this "debate".
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Beet
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« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2014, 10:35:02 AM »

This whole conflict is essntially the radical Palestinians and radical Israelis killing each other with the moderates being unwilling to reign them in.

Pretty much this is why I gave up on the whole "Israel Palestine" issue many, many years ago. It has gone on for time immemorial and it will continue to go on long after we're ground into dust, my friend.
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ingemann
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« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2014, 10:52:59 AM »

My contribution is: I ABSOLUTELY HATE both sides of this "debate".

I can only agree. I was rampant pro-Israel while I was high school and while I read at my old university. The primary reason for this was how much I despised the pro-Palestinian side, their arguments and their general obnoxiousness. But some year later, at the moment when the Lebanon invasion happened, I lost any respect I had for Israel, which lead me look more objective on the settlements, and since then no matter how much I think the Palestinians are a bunch of morons, I have come to the conclusion, that Tel Aviv not Ramallah are the primary reason that we don't see a peace today.
 
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dead0man
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« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2014, 12:02:47 PM »

There is a lot of people posting in these threads that hate the debate or have given up on the issue.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2014, 12:33:46 PM »

My contribution is: I ABSOLUTELY HATE both sides of this "debate".

I can only agree. I was rampant pro-Israel while I was high school and while I read at my old university. The primary reason for this was how much I despised the pro-Palestinian side, their arguments and their general obnoxiousness. But some year later, at the moment when the Lebanon invasion happened, I lost any respect I had for Israel, which lead me look more objective on the settlements, and since then no matter how much I think the Palestinians are a bunch of morons, I have come to the conclusion, that Tel Aviv not Ramallah are the primary reason that we don't see a peace today.

I actually had a pretty similar evolution - actually, I still kinda defended Israel during the invasion of Lebanon and even the Gaza one. What really cut it for me was the continued colonization process, since there it just can't be defended under any rationale based on Israel's safety, and just prove the government doesn't give a sh*t about peace.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2014, 01:12:17 PM »

It's not as relevant who exactly started the missile launches this iteration. The fact that Israel has staged a naval blockade around Gaza for years is sufficient grounds for military retaliation.

Definitely, but you can argue it's not grounds for indiscriminate rocket attacks.
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Cassius
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« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2014, 01:34:19 PM »

Its not actually strictly correct that the Israeli blockade of Gaza prompted Hamas rocket attacks; in fact, it was the other way around. When the Israelis (then under the auspices of Ariel Sharon) withdrew from the Gaza strip in 2005, they signed an agreement with the PA allowing for full Palestinian control over their own borders. Unfortunately, when Hamas drove Fatah out of the Gaza Strip in 2007, the former began using it as a base to attack Israel. This directly caused the blockade of Gaza (keep in mind as well that this blockade is supported by the Egyptians as well), although it should be pointed out that the Israelis do try to allow food and humanitarian aid to be imported (not always successfully though), whilst attempting to keep fresh weapons out of the hands of Hamas. This blockade has been determined as legal by the UN (with regards to 2011's Palmer Report). I think this idea that Israel is primarily at fault when it comes to these rocket attacks is highly misleading.
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Velasco
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« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2014, 01:55:54 PM »

My contribution is: I ABSOLUTELY HATE both sides of this "debate".

Simfan, make yourself a favour and block this piece of s***
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