The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

"Jews are being targeted all across Europe"

"*world's smallest violin image*"

This thread has been a fascinating exercise in the dropping of pretenses, as well as a wonderful justification of Israel's existence and its nuclear program.

How many Jews have been killed the last 10 years in Europe, I'm going to guess with your great knowledge about Europe you can answer that.

As for nuclear arms, I don't care one way or another, the whole Samson Option is a empty threat, quite useful as one, but still empty.

How many will it take for you to care?

[ingemann]

This thread has been a fascinating exercise in the dropping of pretenses,

It really has.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Honestly, I can see what you mean by this too.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, er, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Some European guy doesn't recognise that synagogues are besieged (by whom some frothing horde I guess) all over Europe, it's like a repeat of the Holocaust, we're all going to die unless we threaten to use the Samson Option against Europe (not like that lower other people's opinion of Israelis or their cause).

...and people wonder why most Europeans don't take American and israeli claims about Jews being persecuted in today's Europe seriously.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

This thread has been a fascinating exercise in the dropping of pretenses,

It really has.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Honestly, I can see what you mean by this too.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, er, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Some European guy doesn't recognise that synagogues are besieged (by whom some frothing horde I guess) all over Europe, it's like a repeat of the Holocaust, we're all going to die unless we threaten to use the Samson Option against Europe (not like that lower other people's opinion of Israelis or their cause).

...and people wonder why most Europeans don't take American and israeli claims about Jews being persecuted in today's Europe seriously.

That's not what I'm saying. I think what Ray Goldfield is saying about the Samson Option is overdramatic and silly.

[ingemann]

"Jews are being targeted all across Europe"

"*world's smallest violin image*"

This thread has been a fascinating exercise in the dropping of pretenses, as well as a wonderful justification of Israel's existence and its nuclear program.

How many Jews have been killed the last 10 years in Europe, I'm going to guess with your great knowledge about Europe you can answer that.

As for nuclear arms, I don't care one way or another, the whole Samson Option is a empty threat, quite useful as one, but still empty.

How many will it take for you to care?

Well I care about every person killed in the world and think that one person are one too many. So if it's more than zero I care. The question you should ask instead how would it take, for me to think that you're not just a bigot filled with hot air and a persecution complex the size of a middle sized country.

[ingemann]

This thread has been a fascinating exercise in the dropping of pretenses,

It really has.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Honestly, I can see what you mean by this too.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, er, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Some European guy doesn't recognise that synagogues are besieged (by whom some frothing horde I guess) all over Europe, it's like a repeat of the Holocaust, we're all going to die unless we threaten to use the Samson Option against Europe (not like that lower other people's opinion of Israelis or their cause).

...and people wonder why most Europeans don't take American and israeli claims about Jews being persecuted in today's Europe seriously.

That's not what I'm saying. I think what Ray Goldfield is saying about the Samson Option is overdramatic and silly.

Well you're still saying that because I don't recognise that synagogues are besieged all over Europe, it some kind of act of anti-semitism, that's everybit as mindblowing ignorant.

[Silent Hunter]

I've just come back from Cardiff and walked past a pro-Palestinian demonstration on my way back to Central station. The chant of the c. 300 crowd went as follows:

"Free, Free, Palestine! From the river to the sea! Palestine!"

I'll let you draw what ever conclusions you want to from that.

[ingemann]

I've just come back from Cardiff and walked past a pro-Palestinian demonstration on my way back to Central station. The chant of the c. 300 crowd went as follows:

"Free, Free, Palestine! From the river to the sea! Palestine!"

I'll let you draw what ever conclusions you want to from that.

So was it non-Muslim demonstrators who chanted it?

Because this was the picture I could find

[Silent Hunter]

I couldn't tell whether there they were Muslims or not; it's kind of hard to tell that sort of thing without asking and I was too busy to ask.

[ingemann]

I couldn't tell whether there they were Muslims or not; it's kind of hard to tell that sort of thing without asking and I wasn't asking.

It must be glorious to live in such a post racial world, when you can not even look at a group of people and make a educated guess whether these people are Britons of native origin or of Middle Eastern or Asian (as the term are used in Britain) origin.

[Silent Hunter]

It must be glorious to live in such a post racial world, when you can not even look at a group of people and make a educated guess whether these people are Britons of native origin or of Middle Eastern or Asian (as the term are used in Britain) origin.

Middle Eastern or Asian doesn't equal Muslim... it can just as easily equal Hindu, Sikh or Jew. Also, here's another headscarf wearer.

[ingemann]

It must be glorious to live in such a post racial world, when you can not even look at a group of people and make a educated guess whether these people are Britons of native origin or of Middle Eastern or Asian (as the term are used in Britain) origin.

Middle Eastern or Asian doesn't equal Muslim... it can just as easily equal Hindu, Sikh or Jew. Also, here's another headscarf wearer.

Because there are a lot of Hindus, Jews and Sikhs who take part in such demonstrations and want to destroy Israel....

[swl]

I've just come back from Cardiff and walked past a pro-Palestinian demonstration on my way back to Central station. The chant of the c. 300 crowd went as follows:

"Free, Free, Palestine! From the river to the sea! Palestine!"

I'll let you draw what ever conclusions you want to from that.

Today in France it was "Israel murderer" vs "Palestine f*** you in the ass".

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The speed of which threads on this subject suddenly lurch into absolute sh!t is often quite remarkable. Surely there's the rest of the internet to play with?

And it then proceeded to get even worse. Congratulations everyone. In a way, I suppose, the internet sometimes mirrors reality.

[Indy Texas]

"Jews are being targeted all across Europe"

"*world's smallest violin image*"

This thread has been a fascinating exercise in the dropping of pretenses, as well as a wonderful justification of Israel's existence and its nuclear program.

How many Jews have been killed the last 10 years in Europe, I'm going to guess with your great knowledge about Europe you can answer that.

As for nuclear arms, I don't care one way or another, the whole Samson Option is a empty threat, quite useful as one, but still empty.

How many will it take for you to care?

Ray, I'm trying very hard to understand how a synagogue in Europe getting vandalized has anything to do with the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

You seem to operate by some bizarre calculus where the various wrongs done to Jews in Europe throughout history gives the State of Israel the right to heap suffering and indignation specifically on Palestinians in the present day, despite the fact that I'm fairly sure there were no Palestinians at the Spanish Inquisition, or in England during the expulsion of the Jews or in Auschwitz manning the trains.

[Gustaf]

Are some people not aware of the fairly severe persecution of Jewish people across Europe from groups of Muslim fundamentalists? As Jewish people fled Sweden's third city the city Mayor stated that they should make Israel behave better if they wanted to be able to live safely in the city. Just to give an example of what I suspect Ray was alluding to.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

"Jews are being targeted all across Europe"

"*world's smallest violin image*"

This thread has been a fascinating exercise in the dropping of pretenses, as well as a wonderful justification of Israel's existence and its nuclear program.

How many Jews have been killed the last 10 years in Europe, I'm going to guess with your great knowledge about Europe you can answer that.

As for nuclear arms, I don't care one way or another, the whole Samson Option is a empty threat, quite useful as one, but still empty.

How many will it take for you to care?

Ray, I'm trying very hard to understand how a synagogue in Europe getting vandalized has anything to do with the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

You seem to operate by some bizarre calculus where the various wrongs done to Jews in Europe throughout history gives the State of Israel the right to heap suffering and indignation specifically on Palestinians in the present day

This is exactly the mindset of Israel apologists.

[MaxQue]

Are some people not aware of the fairly severe persecution of Jewish people across Europe from groups of Muslim fundamentalists? As Jewish people fled Sweden's third city the city Mayor stated that they should make Israel behave better if they wanted to be able to live safely in the city. Just to give an example of what I suspect Ray was alluding to.

Well, I remember similar warnings given to Americans in Europe at the beginning of Irak War. It's constant in history than countries with unpopular foreign policies is having an effect on the life of people linked to them in other countries.

It's sad and distasteful, but we have to live with it. This is a war between two "countries" and, as usual, it spils over to people for those countires in other countries. During Falklands War, I'm pretty than British people and Argentine people were hating each other, even if living in different countries.

It's a terrible side effect, but it's inevitable. And all is worsened by the fact than it's a religious war, let's be honest. Extreme Muslims (Hamas and the other terrorist groups) vs. Extreme Jews (settlers, religious right and theocrats).

I would also argue than the real losers aren't Palestine or Israel, they are the moderates Jews and Muslims, who only want to live in peace in their home, villages and cities.

[Indy Texas]

Are some people not aware of the fairly severe persecution of Jewish people across Europe from groups of Muslim fundamentalists? As Jewish people fled Sweden's third city the city Mayor stated that they should make Israel behave better if they wanted to be able to live safely in the city. Just to give an example of what I suspect Ray was alluding to.

You still haven't answered my question. Jews are being persecuted by Muslim fundamentalists in Europe. How is that the Palestinians' fault?!

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

"Jews are being targeted all across Europe"

"*world's smallest violin image*"

This thread has been a fascinating exercise in the dropping of pretenses, as well as a wonderful justification of Israel's existence and its nuclear program.

How many Jews have been killed the last 10 years in Europe, I'm going to guess with your great knowledge about Europe you can answer that.

As for nuclear arms, I don't care one way or another, the whole Samson Option is a empty threat, quite useful as one, but still empty.

How many will it take for you to care?

Ray, I'm trying very hard to understand how a synagogue in Europe getting vandalized has anything to do with the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

You seem to operate by some bizarre calculus where the various wrongs done to Jews in Europe throughout history gives the State of Israel the right to heap suffering and indignation specifically on Palestinians in the present day, despite the fact that I'm fairly sure there were no Palestinians at the Spanish Inquisition, or in England during the expulsion of the Jews or in Auschwitz manning the trains.

That post was in the context of someone talking about anti-semitism in Pro-Palestinian movements. Snowstalker then tried to derail the conversation to "But the Zionists are the REAL racists!!!". I attempted to rerail the discussion to the fact that Jews are actually being violently targeted in Europe today.

As for the Palestinians themselves, I'm hoping for a peaceful solution with the West Bank, hopefully via integration and democracy rather than trying to carve two bowlderized states out of one tiny area. I think that boat has sailed with Gaza and Hamas, unfortunately. Perpetual war seems like the only outcome there.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Are some people not aware of the fairly severe persecution of Jewish people across Europe from groups of Muslim fundamentalists? As Jewish people fled Sweden's third city the city Mayor stated that they should make Israel behave better if they wanted to be able to live safely in the city. Just to give an example of what I suspect Ray was alluding to.

I don't think it's entirely fair to say that it's just Muslim fundamentalists. There's a resurgent far-right wing in Europe that has been very happy to take advantage of this anger against Israel to do what they always do.

[MaxQue]

Are some people not aware of the fairly severe persecution of Jewish people across Europe from groups of Muslim fundamentalists? As Jewish people fled Sweden's third city the city Mayor stated that they should make Israel behave better if they wanted to be able to live safely in the city. Just to give an example of what I suspect Ray was alluding to.

I don't think it's entirely fair to say that it's just Muslim fundamentalists. There's a resurgent far-right wing in Europe that has been very happy to take advantage of this anger against Israel to do what they always do.

Through, they don't only hate Jews. They hate anybody who isn't a White Christian Heterosexual person from their country.

[Indy Texas]

As for the Palestinians themselves, I'm hoping for a peaceful solution with the West Bank, hopefully via integration and democracy rather than trying to carve two bowlderized states out of one tiny area. I think that boat has sailed with Gaza and Hamas, unfortunately. Perpetual war seems like the only outcome there.

If you want democracy and integration of the West Bank, you've just thrown the concept of Israel as a majority-Jewish state out the window.

I'd like to think that in such a scenario, the Arab majority would stand on the side of liberal democracy and pluralism, but past experiments in the region suggest that isn't guaranteed.

My own family has all but given up on the prospect of an independent Palestine for fear that at best it would be just another Islamic country and that at worst it would go the way of Iraq under ISIS.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

As for the Palestinians themselves, I'm hoping for a peaceful solution with the West Bank, hopefully via integration and democracy rather than trying to carve two bowlderized states out of one tiny area. I think that boat has sailed with Gaza and Hamas, unfortunately. Perpetual war seems like the only outcome there.

If you want democracy and integration of the West Bank, you've just thrown the concept of Israel as a majority-Jewish state out the window.

I'd like to think that in such a scenario, the Arab majority would stand on the side of liberal democracy and pluralism, but past experiments in the region suggest that isn't guaranteed.

My own family has all but given up on the prospect of an independent Palestine for fear that at best it would be just another Islamic country and that at worst it would go the way of Iraq under ISIS.

Most of the demographic studies I've seen recently have said the Orthodox baby boom is going to ensure a Jewish majority even in that situation. Not that I think there's any real chance of that happening - neither side is interested at this point in time. And with upheaval in the region, and Jordan's future up in the air, I really have no clue how things are going to go.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

This thread has been a fascinating exercise in the dropping of pretenses,

It really has.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Honestly, I can see what you mean by this too.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, er, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Some European guy doesn't recognise that synagogues are besieged (by whom some frothing horde I guess) all over Europe, it's like a repeat of the Holocaust, we're all going to die unless we threaten to use the Samson Option against Europe (not like that lower other people's opinion of Israelis or their cause).

...and people wonder why most Europeans don't take American and israeli claims about Jews being persecuted in today's Europe seriously.

That's not what I'm saying. I think what Ray Goldfield is saying about the Samson Option is overdramatic and silly.

Well you're still saying that because I don't recognise that synagogues are besieged all over Europe, it some kind of act of anti-semitism, that's everybit as mindblowing ignorant.

You're being deliberately and studiously insensitive to the idea that that's even a possibility, is the problem.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

This thread has been a fascinating exercise in the dropping of pretenses,

It really has.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Honestly, I can see what you mean by this too.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, er, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Some European guy doesn't recognise that synagogues are besieged (by whom some frothing horde I guess) all over Europe, it's like a repeat of the Holocaust, we're all going to die unless we threaten to use the Samson Option against Europe (not like that lower other people's opinion of Israelis or their cause).

...and people wonder why most Europeans don't take American and israeli claims about Jews being persecuted in today's Europe seriously.

That's not what I'm saying. I think what Ray Goldfield is saying about the Samson Option is overdramatic and silly.

Well you're still saying that because I don't recognise that synagogues are besieged all over Europe, it some kind of act of anti-semitism, that's everybit as mindblowing ignorant.

You don't think it is anti-semitic to protest a synagogue instead of something more relevant, like say, the Israeli embassy?