The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[they don't love you like i love you]

Depends on the synagogue in question of course. I'm sure there's many Reform ones that aren't comfortable with many of Israel's actions, but there are many others that are pretty Likudnik in their outlook, and protesting one of those isn't anti-Semitic. The Israeli embassy obviously is a more relevant thing to protest, but unless you live in the capital of the city that's not an option.

It's kind of like protesting a church that's quite outspoken against homosexuality and gay marriage. That's fair game. Protesting just some random church without even looking up their position on gay marriage on the other hand would be dumb.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

There is some shameful sh**t in this thread

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Depends on the synagogue in question of course. I'm sure there's many Reform ones that aren't comfortable with many of Israel's actions, but there are many others that are pretty Likudnik in their outlook, and protesting one of those isn't anti-Semitic. The Israeli embassy obviously is a more relevant thing to protest, but unless you live in the capital of the city that's not an option.

It's kind of like protesting a church that's quite outspoken against homosexuality and gay marriage. That's fair game. Protesting just some random church without even looking up their position on gay marriage on the other hand would be dumb.

Molotov cocktails have been thrown at synagogues. This is no longer a protest, this is the opening stage of a pogrom.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/07/20/propalestinian_youth_attack_two_synagogues_in_paris_suburbs.html

[MaxQue]

Depends on the synagogue in question of course. I'm sure there's many Reform ones that aren't comfortable with many of Israel's actions, but there are many others that are pretty Likudnik in their outlook, and protesting one of those isn't anti-Semitic. The Israeli embassy obviously is a more relevant thing to protest, but unless you live in the capital of the city that's not an option.

It's kind of like protesting a church that's quite outspoken against homosexuality and gay marriage. That's fair game. Protesting just some random church without even looking up their position on gay marriage on the other hand would be dumb.

Molotov cocktails have been thrown at synagogues. This is no longer a protest, this is the opening stage of a pogrom.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/07/20/propalestinian_youth_attack_two_synagogues_in_paris_suburbs.html

"The opening stage of a pogrom" is excessive rhetoric, but, indeed, that's concerning, like was the success of the French "humorist" Dieudonné, whose "shows" are hours of anti-semitic ramblings.

Those events are not proving than there will be pogroms, soon. It's proving than French integration model is a momumental failure (who would have thought than dumping poor immigrants in suburbs consisting of acres of badly maintained concrete towers, poor transportation links,no role models and community leaders consisting of gang leaders and shady religious extremists was a bad idea?). Rioting is common there, they only need a reason.

The anti-semitic leaders needs to be prosecuted under the fullest exted of the law and clear actions taken by government to bring back the "cités" into the first world (the poorest black neighbourhood of the USA is in better shape than the "cités").

[Indy Texas]

Depends on the synagogue in question of course. I'm sure there's many Reform ones that aren't comfortable with many of Israel's actions, but there are many others that are pretty Likudnik in their outlook, and protesting one of those isn't anti-Semitic. The Israeli embassy obviously is a more relevant thing to protest, but unless you live in the capital of the city that's not an option.

It's kind of like protesting a church that's quite outspoken against homosexuality and gay marriage. That's fair game. Protesting just some random church without even looking up their position on gay marriage on the other hand would be dumb.

It makes zero sense to give grief to European or American Jews who just want to have their shabbas in peace for the same reason it makes zero sense to vilify your local Muslim community every time someone blows themselves up in Afghanistan or elsewhere.

If you want to protest Israel's actions and there's not an Israeli embassy or consulate, just go to a park and have a demonstration. Why is it necessary to make completely innocent people the object of your indignation?

[Antonio the Sixth]

This thread definitely lived up to the reputation carried by internet discussions on the subject.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Depends on the synagogue in question of course. I'm sure there's many Reform ones that aren't comfortable with many of Israel's actions, but there are many others that are pretty Likudnik in their outlook, and protesting one of those isn't anti-Semitic. The Israeli embassy obviously is a more relevant thing to protest, but unless you live in the capital of the city that's not an option.

It's kind of like protesting a church that's quite outspoken against homosexuality and gay marriage. That's fair game. Protesting just some random church without even looking up their position on gay marriage on the other hand would be dumb.

Molotov cocktails have been thrown at synagogues. This is no longer a protest, this is the opening stage of a pogrom.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/07/20/propalestinian_youth_attack_two_synagogues_in_paris_suburbs.html

A fairly awful thing to do, but torching a synagogue somehow doesn't seem as bad as maintaining an open air prison to use as a shooting gallery every couple of years.

[Franzl]

Depends on the synagogue in question of course. I'm sure there's many Reform ones that aren't comfortable with many of Israel's actions, but there are many others that are pretty Likudnik in their outlook, and protesting one of those isn't anti-Semitic. The Israeli embassy obviously is a more relevant thing to protest, but unless you live in the capital of the city that's not an option.

It's kind of like protesting a church that's quite outspoken against homosexuality and gay marriage. That's fair game. Protesting just some random church without even looking up their position on gay marriage on the other hand would be dumb.

Molotov cocktails have been thrown at synagogues. This is no longer a protest, this is the opening stage of a pogrom.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/07/20/propalestinian_youth_attack_two_synagogues_in_paris_suburbs.html

A fairly awful thing to do, but torching a synagogue somehow doesn't seem as bad as maintaining an open air prison to use as a shooting gallery every couple of years.

And somehow you've failed to notice that the one shouldn't have anything to do with the other. The Jewish people going to the synagogue in Paris have nothing to do with Israel or its government's policies.

Of course, these are (thankfully) isolated incidents and claiming Jews suffer widespread persecution in Europe is absurd, but isolated as they may be, they are clearly worthy of our condemnation.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Depends on the synagogue in question of course. I'm sure there's many Reform ones that aren't comfortable with many of Israel's actions, but there are many others that are pretty Likudnik in their outlook, and protesting one of those isn't anti-Semitic. The Israeli embassy obviously is a more relevant thing to protest, but unless you live in the capital of the city that's not an option.

It's kind of like protesting a church that's quite outspoken against homosexuality and gay marriage. That's fair game. Protesting just some random church without even looking up their position on gay marriage on the other hand would be dumb.

Molotov cocktails have been thrown at synagogues. This is no longer a protest, this is the opening stage of a pogrom.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/07/20/propalestinian_youth_attack_two_synagogues_in_paris_suburbs.html

A fairly awful thing to do, but torching a synagogue somehow doesn't seem as bad as maintaining an open air prison to use as a shooting gallery every couple of years.

And somehow you've failed to notice that the one shouldn't have anything to do with the other. The Jewish people going to the synagogue in Paris have nothing to do with Israel or its government's policies.

Of course, these are (thankfully) isolated incidents and claiming Jews suffer widespread persecution in Europe is absurd, but isolated as they may be, they are clearly worthy of our condemnation.

I'm aware they're not directly connected; Ray Goldfield is the one arguing they are (and implying that the former is worse).

[Gustaf]

Are some people not aware of the fairly severe persecution of Jewish people across Europe from groups of Muslim fundamentalists? As Jewish people fled Sweden's third city the city Mayor stated that they should make Israel behave better if they wanted to be able to live safely in the city. Just to give an example of what I suspect Ray was alluding to.

Well, I remember similar warnings given to Americans in Europe at the beginning of Irak War. It's constant in history than countries with unpopular foreign policies is having an effect on the life of people linked to them in other countries.

It's sad and distasteful, but we have to live with it. This is a war between two "countries" and, as usual, it spils over to people for those countires in other countries. During Falklands War, I'm pretty than British people and Argentine people were hating each other, even if living in different countries.

It's a terrible side effect, but it's inevitable. And all is worsened by the fact than it's a religious war, let's be honest. Extreme Muslims (Hamas and the other terrorist groups) vs. Extreme Jews (settlers, religious right and theocrats).

I would also argue than the real losers aren't Palestine or Israel, they are the moderates Jews and Muslims, who only want to live in peace in their home, villages and cities.

Um, but Jewish people in Sweden aren't Israeli citizens. Blaming them for the actions of the Israeli state is classic anti-semitism.

[Gustaf]

Are some people not aware of the fairly severe persecution of Jewish people across Europe from groups of Muslim fundamentalists? As Jewish people fled Sweden's third city the city Mayor stated that they should make Israel behave better if they wanted to be able to live safely in the city. Just to give an example of what I suspect Ray was alluding to.

You still haven't answered my question. Jews are being persecuted by Muslim fundamentalists in Europe. How is that the Palestinians' fault?!

Where did I claim it was the Palestinians' fault? I'm not sure I understand your point, if you have one.

[ingemann]

Do we really need to say it...

No, Non-Israeli Jews or synagogues are not acceptable targets not even for peaceful demonstration, as they have no direct influence on Israeli policy. Israeli abroad are not legitimate targets either for violent acts and even in Israel/Palestinia, it's not legitimate to go after Israeli civilians as targets either (collatoral damage can be discussed).

Even if we only see it from a purely pragmatic POV and not a moral one, the lesson from the Second Intifada and the Israeli invasions and bombings of Gaza, the killing of civilians have not resulted in breaking either sides will to fight.

[they don't love you like i love you]

For the record I was referring only to synogagues that promote unconditional support for Israel. That's equivalent to protesting a mosque that expresses support for suicide bombers, which is completely legitimate. Protesting all synogagues over Israel or all mosques over terrorism isn't.

And yes I doubt the protestors are making such a distinction. But violent or non-violent they still make up a fringe minority. Ray seems to think a majority of Europeans are anti-Semites.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Do we really need to say it...

No, Non-Israeli Jews or synagogues are not acceptable targets not even for peaceful demonstration, as they have no direct influence on Israeli policy. Israeli abroad are not legitimate targets either for violent acts and even in Israel/Palestinia, it's not legitimate to go after Israeli civilians as targets either (collatoral damage can be discussed).

Even if we only see it from a purely pragmatic POV and not a moral one, the lesson from the Second Intifada and the Israeli invasions and bombings of Gaza, the killing of civilians have not resulted in breaking either sides will to fight.

Yes, you really do need to say it.  One of my biggest criticisms of so-called Palestinian rights activists, regardless of whether or not they're Palestinian, is that while they are always quick to try to paint the Israeli army (which does not target civilians even if some have been unintentionally killed by them) as some sort of bloodthirsty killing machine, they hardly ever criticize the actions of terrorist groups like Hamas which deliberately target civilians and even use their fellow Palestinians as human shields.  And when they do, it is almost always after being called-out on the matter in public/shamed into doing so.  Is the Israeli government's response always perfect?  Of course not and they are in the wrong on some issues, such as the settlements.  Is there anything even remotely resembling a shred of equivalency between Israel's democratic government defending the Israeli people and the terrorism and butchery of groups like Hamas?  No, and it is an insult to the innocent victims on both sides when people like BRTD suggest that there is.  It is like comparing the U.S. to Al-Qaeda.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/statuses/491146412009070592

Stay classy Tel Aviv.

LOL

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Perhaps it would make sense to begin this thread again?

[King]

Better idea: let's ban all threads on the subject.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Do we really need to say it...

No, Non-Israeli Jews or synagogues are not acceptable targets not even for peaceful demonstration, as they have no direct influence on Israeli policy. Israeli abroad are not legitimate targets either for violent acts and even in Israel/Palestinia, it's not legitimate to go after Israeli civilians as targets either (collatoral damage can be discussed).

Even if we only see it from a purely pragmatic POV and not a moral one, the lesson from the Second Intifada and the Israeli invasions and bombings of Gaza, the killing of civilians have not resulted in breaking either sides will to fight.

FTFY.  Considering the high levels of collateral damage that have been done, it's fairly clear that Israel does not place much consideration upon whether civilian casualties will occur when it goes after its military targets.  Granted, it shows more consideration than Hamas, but that literally isn't saying very much.

Perhaps it would make sense to begin this thread again?

No.  There's no reason to think it would be any better.  Just as there's no reason to think, we won't be having this same discussion three years from now, five years from now, nine years from now, et cetera when Israel and Palestine have future violent flare-ups in their hate-hate relationship.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

How about a list of posters banned from 'contributing' to such threads?

[they don't love you like i love you]

When on Earth did I ever express support for Hamas, refuse to condemn them or imply they were morally equivalent to Israel?

Also don't see anything remotely offensive about that tweet.

[Middle-aged Europe]

This thread is a fine representation of why the Middle East conflict is such a mess. It must be preserved.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

When on Earth did I ever express support for Hamas, refuse to condemn them or imply they were morally equivalent to Israel?

Also don't see anything remotely offensive about that tweet.

You didn't quite imply that they were morally equivalent to Israel, but the bolded part of this post was in that general ballpark, although in fairness to you, as I look back at the post it seems like I may have misinterpreted what your post.

For the record I was referring only to synogagues that promote unconditional support for Israel. That's equivalent to protesting a mosque that expresses support for suicide bombers, which is completely legitimate. Protesting all synogagues over Israel or all mosques over terrorism isn't.

And yes I doubt the protestors are making such a distinction. But violent or non-violent they still make up a fringe minority. Ray seems to think a majority of Europeans are anti-Semites.

[MalaspinaGold]

http://forward.com/articles/202383/tel-aviv-is-under-red-alert-in-many-ways/

On the outbreak of violence against the Israeli left-wing.

Personally, I think this s the most dangerous thing to come out of this whole mess, and it will have the most far-reaching consequences.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/07/21/netanyahus-telegenically-dead-comment-original/

[Simfan34]

The number of Israeli children killed vs. the number of Palestinian children killed:

I presume it's no less topical for me to bring up the fact that there have been many more Palestinians who could be considered war criminals than Israelis?