The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[they don't love you like i love you]

When on Earth did I ever express support for Hamas, refuse to condemn them or imply they were morally equivalent to Israel?

Also don't see anything remotely offensive about that tweet.

You didn't quite imply that they were morally equivalent to Israel, but the bolded part of this post was in that general ballpark, although in fairness to you, as I look back at the post it seems like I may have misinterpreted what your post.

For the record I was referring only to synogagues that promote unconditional support for Israel. That's equivalent to protesting a mosque that expresses support for suicide bombers, which is completely legitimate. Protesting all synogagues over Israel or all mosques over terrorism isn't.

And yes I doubt the protestors are making such a distinction. But violent or non-violent they still make up a fringe minority. Ray seems to think a majority of Europeans are anti-Semites.

It was in response to the point that protesting synagogues is like protesting mosques after Islamist terrorist attacks. The point was that protesting a synagogue of a Kahanist or Dov Hikind-esque bent is more comparable to protesting a mosque that actually promotes suicide bombings and speaks out in favor of terrorists. That's fair game and I fail to see how either is any different than protesting anti-gay churches.

Are the protestors in question making this distinction? Probably not. And the hate crimes are also quite horrifying. But they make up clearly a very small fringe in any country, and Ray's claims that a "pogrom" is about to start is absurd fearmongering.

[Indy Texas]

The number of Israeli children killed vs. the number of Palestinian children killed:

I presume it's no less topical for me to bring up the fact that there have been many more Palestinians who could be considered war criminals than Israelis?

...what does that even mean? How do you figure that?

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

When on Earth did I ever express support for Hamas, refuse to condemn them or imply they were morally equivalent to Israel?

Also don't see anything remotely offensive about that tweet.

You didn't quite imply that they were morally equivalent to Israel, but the bolded part of this post was in that general ballpark, although in fairness to you, as I look back at the post it seems like I may have misinterpreted what your post.

For the record I was referring only to synogagues that promote unconditional support for Israel. That's equivalent to protesting a mosque that expresses support for suicide bombers, which is completely legitimate. Protesting all synogagues over Israel or all mosques over terrorism isn't.

And yes I doubt the protestors are making such a distinction. But violent or non-violent they still make up a fringe minority. Ray seems to think a majority of Europeans are anti-Semites.

It was in response to the point that protesting synagogues is like protesting mosques after Islamist terrorist attacks. The point was that protesting a synagogue of a Kahanist or Dov Hikind-esque bent is more comparable to protesting a mosque that actually promotes suicide bombings and speaks out in favor of terrorists. That's fair game and I fail to see how either is any different than protesting anti-gay churches.

Are the protestors in question making this distinction? Probably not. And the hate crimes are also quite horrifying. But they make up clearly a very small fringe in any country, and Ray's claims that a "pogrom" is about to start is absurd fearmongering.

Ah, if you meant Kahanist and Hikindesque synagogues , fair enough.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

When on Earth did I ever express support for Hamas, refuse to condemn them or imply they were morally equivalent to Israel?

Also don't see anything remotely offensive about that tweet.

You didn't quite imply that they were morally equivalent to Israel, but the bolded part of this post was in that general ballpark, although in fairness to you, as I look back at the post it seems like I may have misinterpreted what your post.

For the record I was referring only to synogagues that promote unconditional support for Israel. That's equivalent to protesting a mosque that expresses support for suicide bombers, which is completely legitimate. Protesting all synogagues over Israel or all mosques over terrorism isn't.

And yes I doubt the protestors are making such a distinction. But violent or non-violent they still make up a fringe minority. Ray seems to think a majority of Europeans are anti-Semites.

It was in response to the point that protesting synagogues is like protesting mosques after Islamist terrorist attacks. The point was that protesting a synagogue of a Kahanist or Dov Hikind-esque bent is more comparable to protesting a mosque that actually promotes suicide bombings and speaks out in favor of terrorists. That's fair game and I fail to see how either is any different than protesting anti-gay churches.

Are the protestors in question making this distinction? Probably not. And the hate crimes are also quite horrifying. But they make up clearly a very small fringe in any country, and Ray's claims that a "pogrom" is about to start is absurd fearmongering.

Ah, if you meant Kahanist and Hikindesque synagogues , fair enough.

Radical synagogues like that would be legitimate targets for peaceful protests of their policies, but violence would still be inexcusable no matter what, natch.

But it is far from just radical synagogues, or even just synagogues. The radical anti-semites have dropped all pretenses and are letting their hate flag fly.

blogs.timesofisrael.com/everyone-knows-that-anti-zionism-has-nothing-to-do-with-anti-semitism/

Edit: I do not totally agree with the subject of the article, i don't believe anti-zionism is inherently anti-semitic. But to deny the cancerous anti-semitic element that is lurking within the movement is to deny reality. Anti-semites always find the trendiest and most socially acceptable reason to hate Jews and jump on it.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Israel's actions in the Gaza strip aren't surprising or shocking in the least. They have a clear cut casus belli and Hamas should be punished for its actions. That isn't why this particular conflict is so troubling: Netanyahu is using the threat of Hamas' tunnels as a justification for formally withdrawing his (misleading)  public support of a two state solution and this comes as a Naftali Bennet is pushing for a de facto annextion of the West Bank. Something is rotten in Israel.

I'm an "anti-Zionist" because I am concerned for Jews who have no interest in living in an Israel that treats them as gentile-loving traitors. Israel legitimizes anti-semitism as a valid worldview every time it defends its settlements. Every time it displays ultra-jingoistic behavior by bombing Gaza hospitals, imprisoning those who work for NGOs and bullying the US, it makes the world a much darker place for Jews.

[Famous Mortimer]

Israel's actions in the Gaza strip aren't surprising or shocking in the least. They have a clear cut casus belli and Hamas should be punished for its actions. That isn't why this particular conflict is so troubling: Netanyahu is using the threat of Hamas' tunnels as a justification for formally withdrawing his (misleading)  public support of a two state solution and this comes as a Naftali Bennet is pushing for a de facto annextion of the West Bank. Something is rotten in Israel.

I'm an "anti-Zionist" because I am concerned for Jews who have no interest in living in an Israel that treats them as gentile-loving traitors. Israel legitimizes anti-semitism as a valid worldview every time it defends its settlements. Every time it displays ultra-jingoistic behavior by bombing Gaza hospitals, imprisoning those who work for NGOs and bullying the US, it makes the world a much darker place for Jews.

Netanyahu didn't withdraw his support for the two state solution. His position has always been that he would support a Palestinian state only if it had no army and allowed Israel free reign to go in and take out militants.

It's a moot point though since the two state solution is dead.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Israel's actions in the Gaza strip aren't surprising or shocking in the least. They have a clear cut casus belli and Hamas should be punished for its actions. That isn't why this particular conflict is so troubling: Netanyahu is using the threat of Hamas' tunnels as a justification for formally withdrawing his (misleading)  public support of a two state solution and this comes as a Naftali Bennet is pushing for a de facto annextion of the West Bank. Something is rotten in Israel.

I'm an "anti-Zionist" because I am concerned for Jews who have no interest in living in an Israel that treats them as gentile-loving traitors.  Israel legitimizes anti-semitism as a valid worldview every time it defends its settlements. Every time it displays ultra-jingoistic behavior by bombing Gaza hospitals, imprisoning those who work for NGOs and bullying the US, it makes the world a much darker place for Jews.

So you consider anti-semitism a valid and legitimate lens through which to look at the world?  Wow...

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Israel's actions in the Gaza strip aren't surprising or shocking in the least. They have a clear cut casus belli and Hamas should be punished for its actions. That isn't why this particular conflict is so troubling: Netanyahu is using the threat of Hamas' tunnels as a justification for formally withdrawing his (misleading)  public support of a two state solution and this comes as a Naftali Bennet is pushing for a de facto annextion of the West Bank. Something is rotten in Israel.

I'm an "anti-Zionist" because I am concerned for Jews who have no interest in living in an Israel that treats them as gentile-loving traitors. Israel legitimizes anti-semitism as a valid worldview every time it defends its settlements. Every time it displays ultra-jingoistic behavior by bombing Gaza hospitals, imprisoning those who work for NGOs and bullying the US, it makes the world a much darker place for Jews.

I never, ever, ever thought I'd agree with you on something, but here I am.

Israel's actions in the Gaza strip aren't surprising or shocking in the least. They have a clear cut casus belli and Hamas should be punished for its actions. That isn't why this particular conflict is so troubling: Netanyahu is using the threat of Hamas' tunnels as a justification for formally withdrawing his (misleading)  public support of a two state solution and this comes as a Naftali Bennet is pushing for a de facto annextion of the West Bank. Something is rotten in Israel.

I'm an "anti-Zionist" because I am concerned for Jews who have no interest in living in an Israel that treats them as gentile-loving traitors.  Israel legitimizes anti-semitism as a valid worldview every time it defends its settlements. Every time it displays ultra-jingoistic behavior by bombing Gaza hospitals, imprisoning those who work for NGOs and bullying the US, it makes the world a much darker place for Jews.

So you consider anti-semitism a valid and legitimate lens through which to look at the world?  Wow...

I don't think he condones anti-semitism as much as he understands why anti-semitic reactions to Israel take place.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Israel's actions in the Gaza strip aren't surprising or shocking in the least. They have a clear cut casus belli and Hamas should be punished for its actions. That isn't why this particular conflict is so troubling: Netanyahu is using the threat of Hamas' tunnels as a justification for formally withdrawing his (misleading)  public support of a two state solution and this comes as a Naftali Bennet is pushing for a de facto annextion of the West Bank. Something is rotten in Israel.

I'm an "anti-Zionist" because I am concerned for Jews who have no interest in living in an Israel that treats them as gentile-loving traitors.  Israel legitimizes anti-semitism as a valid worldview every time it defends its settlements. Every time it displays ultra-jingoistic behavior by bombing Gaza hospitals, imprisoning those who work for NGOs and bullying the US, it makes the world a much darker place for Jews.

So you consider anti-semitism a valid and legitimate lens through which to look at the world?  Wow...

Anti-semitism is evil. If you're serious about combating it, it's of the utmost importance to consider what factors nurture anti-semitism. Israel's actions have unquestionably turned millions towards anti-semitic beliefs.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Israel's actions in the Gaza strip aren't surprising or shocking in the least. They have a clear cut casus belli and Hamas should be punished for its actions. That isn't why this particular conflict is so troubling: Netanyahu is using the threat of Hamas' tunnels as a justification for formally withdrawing his (misleading)  public support of a two state solution and this comes as a Naftali Bennet is pushing for a de facto annextion of the West Bank. Something is rotten in Israel.

I'm an "anti-Zionist" because I am concerned for Jews who have no interest in living in an Israel that treats them as gentile-loving traitors.  Israel legitimizes anti-semitism as a valid worldview every time it defends its settlements. Every time it displays ultra-jingoistic behavior by bombing Gaza hospitals, imprisoning those who work for NGOs and bullying the US, it makes the world a much darker place for Jews.

So you consider anti-semitism a valid and legitimate lens through which to look at the world?  Wow...

Anti-semitism is evil. If you're serious about combating it, it's of the utmost importance to consider what factors nurture anti-semitism. Israel's actions have unquestionably turned millions towards anti-semitic beliefs.

I don't agree, but as long as you weren't justifying anti-semitism or anything like that, we're good. 

[Indy Texas]

Nanny Bloomberg is going to fly to Israel on his private jet to protest the FAA's flight ban on US carriers providing service to Tel Aviv in light of the rocket fire the area near the airport has sustained.

The man who protected New Yorkers from certain death by large sodas apparently would rather Americans subject themselves to Hamas rocket fire to "show solidarity with the Israeli people."

[Indy Texas]

The former director of the American Jewish Congress has offered his take in Politico, though I doubt Ray Goldfield, dead0man and others will like what he has to say.

[MaxQue]

The former director of the American Jewish Congress has offered his take in Politico, though I doubt Ray Goldfield, dead0man and others will like what he has to say.

Surely he is one of those "self-hating Jews".

[Gustaf]

The former director of the American Jewish Congress has offered his take in Politico, though I doubt Ray Goldfield, dead0man and others will like what he has to say.

Surely he is one of those "self-hating Jews".

Plenty of Jews are of course critical of Israel and its policies and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, it'd be expected in a democratic country like Israel that a fair share of the population would be critical of the government.

[dead0man]

The former director of the American Jewish Congress has offered his take in Politico, though I doubt Ray Goldfield, dead0man and others will like what he has to say.

I don't like or dislike what he has to say.  He made his complaints and critiques without the subtle (or not so subtle) racism we see way too often from others on the subject.  I can understand being against the invasion (I'm not FOR the invasion, but I understand the reasons why).  I can understand thinking it's fine to just hide under the now effective Iron Dome and let the world watch while the angry impotent dogs fire their weapons of terror at civilians by the thousands while doing limited physical damage.  I don't agree with it and think targeting of the launchers is a valid response, but it's a valid argument.

Sorry I'm not as foaming with hate as so many here on the other side.

[Franzl]

The former director of the American Jewish Congress has offered his take in Politico, though I doubt Ray Goldfield, dead0man and others will like what he has to say.

I don't like or dislike what he has to say.  He made his complaints and critiques without the subtle (or not so subtle) racism we see way too often from others on the subject.  I can understand being against the invasion (I'm not FOR the invasion, but I understand the reasons why).  I can understand thinking it's fine to just hide under the now effective Iron Dome and let the world watch while the angry impotent dogs fire their weapons of terror at civilians by the thousands while doing limited physical damage.  I don't agree with it and think targeting of the launchers is a valid response, but it's a valid argument.

Sorry I'm not as foaming with hate as so many here on the other side.

As critical as I often am of Israel, I don't disagree with you that Israel would theoretically have the moral high ground in so far as they certainly have a right to attempt to stop rockets being fired at them.

The problem I have is that they seem to show very little regard (at all?) for civilian casualties. It's hard for me to feel extremely sympathetic for a side that holds civilians on the other side in no higher regard than vice versa.

[dead0man]

Which is weird because they do more THAN ANY NATION IN HISTORY at limiting civilian casualties.  What other nation calls the building before bombing it to warn the people inside?  What other nation drops a small bomb first after the phone call to show they are serious?  Yes, mistakes have been and will be made.  It's especially hard to limit casualties when the local bad guys force civilians to stay in certain places at gun point.  It's especially hard when the bad guys use their hospitals, schools, ambulances and UN facilities (all 4 of those are documented have happened in the last week) to hide or launch their terror weapons.


The IDF cares and SHOWS they care more about civilians in Gaza than the people in charge of Gaza.  I don't understand how any thinking person can come up with any other conclusion.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

You can do better than literally parroting IDF propaganda.

[Franzl]

Which is weird because they do more THAN ANY NATION IN HISTORY at limiting civilian casualties.  What other nation calls the building before bombing it to warn the people inside?  What other nation drops a small bomb first after the phone call to show they are serious?  Yes, mistakes have been and will be made.  It's especially hard to limit casualties when the local bad guys force civilians to stay in certain places at gun point.  It's especially hard when the bad guys use their hospitals, schools, ambulances and UN facilities (all 4 of those are documented have happened in the last week) to hide or launch their terror weapons.


The IDF cares and SHOWS they care more about civilians in Gaza than the people in charge of Gaza.  I don't understand how any thinking person can come up with any other conclusion.

Well hate to agree with Snowstalker, but I think it's rather clear there is quite a discrepancy between words and practice regarding civilians on the other side. But I suppose I'm not a member of the exclusive club of "thinking persons" for failing to reach the correct conclusion.

But then again, I would think that thinking persons would also have a better way of describing complex issues than speaking of "good guys" and "bad guys" all the time.

That said, Israel is entitled to self-defense, and except for anti-semites, it's hard to come up with a reason why they wouldn't have that right. But Israel is a good example for how someone can be in the right but take things to a point where even neutral people start to disagree. (Naturally, you won't agree with this, but that's ok )

[dead0man]

Which is weird because they do more THAN ANY NATION IN HISTORY at limiting civilian casualties.  What other nation calls the building before bombing it to warn the people inside?  What other nation drops a small bomb first after the phone call to show they are serious?  Yes, mistakes have been and will be made.  It's especially hard to limit casualties when the local bad guys force civilians to stay in certain places at gun point.  It's especially hard when the bad guys use their hospitals, schools, ambulances and UN facilities (all 4 of those are documented have happened in the last week) to hide or launch their terror weapons.


The IDF cares and SHOWS they care more about civilians in Gaza than the people in charge of Gaza.  I don't understand how any thinking person can come up with any other conclusion.

Well hate to agree with Snowstalker,

Indeed.

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Is there though?  I noticed you (nor the bigot) refuted the facts in my post, just the conclusion.

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Hamas IS bad guys.  Is that even up for debate?  I don't even think the bigots here like Hamas.

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I think there is a point where they could/would cross that line, I just don't think the facts on the ground say they've hit that line yet.

[Indy Texas]

Which is weird because they do more THAN ANY NATION IN HISTORY at limiting civilian casualties.  What other nation calls the building before bombing it to warn the people inside?  What other nation drops a small bomb first after the phone call to show they are serious?  Yes, mistakes have been and will be made.  It's especially hard to limit casualties when the local bad guys force civilians to stay in certain places at gun point.  It's especially hard when the bad guys use their hospitals, schools, ambulances and UN facilities (all 4 of those are documented have happened in the last week) to hide or launch their terror weapons.


The IDF cares and SHOWS they care more about civilians in Gaza than the people in charge of Gaza.  I don't understand how any thinking person can come up with any other conclusion.

Israel also uses a very weird definition of civilian that the rest of the world doesn't.

A sizable contingent of Israelis consider anyone living in Gaza to be fair game because Hamas won an election once several years ago.

There's also their practice of mafia-style collective punishment and vendettas. Your second-cousin-once-removed is a suspected Hamas member? Your house just got bulldozed. Sorry.

[Indy Texas]

The former director of the American Jewish Congress has offered his take in Politico, though I doubt Ray Goldfield, dead0man and others will like what he has to say.

I don't like or dislike what he has to say.  He made his complaints and critiques without the subtle (or not so subtle) racism we see way too often from others on the subject.  I can understand being against the invasion (I'm not FOR the invasion, but I understand the reasons why).  I can understand thinking it's fine to just hide under the now effective Iron Dome and let the world watch while the angry impotent dogs fire their weapons of terror at civilians by the thousands while doing limited physical damage.  I don't agree with it and think targeting of the launchers is a valid response, but it's a valid argument.

Sorry I'm not as foaming with hate as so many here on the other side.

"Angry impotent dogs" - yeah, no foam in your mouth.

Just curious, dead0man, why are you so invested in this?

If you don't like Islamist terror groups killing and victimizing non-Muslims, you ought to turn your attention to Boko Haram and other such groups, which have killed and kidnapped far more people in Nigeria and sub-Saharan Africa than Hamas has done in Israel.

You seem to be more bothered by injury and death when it is brought on Jews of white European ancestry than you are when it's visited on black Africans. Guess their lives just aren't worth as much - and you're definitely operating from the Yisrael Beiteinu play book with that very racist logic.

[traininthedistance]

Israel's actions in the Gaza strip aren't surprising or shocking in the least. They have a clear cut casus belli and Hamas should be punished for its actions. That isn't why this particular conflict is so troubling: Netanyahu is using the threat of Hamas' tunnels as a justification for formally withdrawing his (misleading)  public support of a two state solution and this comes as a Naftali Bennet is pushing for a de facto annextion of the West Bank. Something is rotten in Israel.

I'm an "anti-Zionist" because I am concerned for Jews who have no interest in living in an Israel that treats them as gentile-loving traitors.  Israel legitimizes anti-semitism as a valid worldview every time it defends its settlements. Every time it displays ultra-jingoistic behavior by bombing Gaza hospitals, imprisoning those who work for NGOs and bullying the US, it makes the world a much darker place for Jews.

So you consider anti-semitism a valid and legitimate lens through which to look at the world?  Wow...

Anti-semitism is evil. If you're serious about combating it, it's of the utmost importance to consider what factors nurture anti-semitism. Israel's actions have unquestionably turned millions towards anti-semitic beliefs.

This clarification helps a lot.  You might want to choose your words a little more carefully next time, they could be very easily construed as excusing/justifying something that should never be excused or justified.

I'll also point out for the zillionth time that there is a big difference between "anti-Zionism" and "anti-actions of the current and recent Israeli government", and it seems like you might have been unfortunately conflating the two with your OP.

[dead0man]

Israel also uses a very weird definition of civilian that the rest of the world doesn't.

?

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Certainly true, thankfully that's not how the people doing the actual fighting actually feel (for the most part, there are always exceptions).

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I'm not saying that has never happened, but it's certainly not common practice.

"Angry impotent dogs" - yeah, no foam in your mouth.

Nope.  Hamas are angry, impotent dogs.  Ok, "dogs" might be a bit mean spirited.

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Because nobody here will AFAIK consistently defend their acts of terror or the good guys response to them.  That's not true with Hamas.  If you'll note, I'm not the only person in these threads.

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Nice try, but nope.  I've stated many times here and elsewhere that I think the west should use it's muscle to assist people who need it all over the world.  That would be almost exclusively to help brown people remove themselves from the brown people keeping them down.  Bill Clinton wasn't wrong trying to feed Somalia in 93, he was wrong for stopping when we got our nose bloodied.  As I've said before, all the "good guys" should get together, make a list of the biggest funked up places on Earth.  Start at the top and ask, "can we do something about this?" If no, move on to number 2, if yes ask, "will it be worth the cost in blood and coin?".  If no, move on to number 2, if yes we do it.  We get together, figure out who should run the show for this round, and then give them all the assistance they need in reaching that goal.  The US shouldn't be the one taking the lead most of the time, but we should help any and every way possible.


In short, the west should have put it's boot up Boko Haram's (and a lot of other bad guys) ass a long time ago.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

"Good guys" and "bad guys"? What are you, eight?