The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[Simfan34]

France's Jews Flee As Rioters Burn Paris Shops, Attack Synagogue

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http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/22/france-jewish-shops-riot_n_5608612.html

One must take care in calling such things "understandable".

[H. Ross Peron]

This would be a fine time for a "whiff of grapeshot".

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

This would be a fine time for a "whiff of grapeshot".

[MaxQue]

France's Jews Flee As Rioters Burn Paris Shops, Attack Synagogue

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http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/22/france-jewish-shops-riot_n_5608612.html

One must take care in calling such things "understandable".

Again, this is Paris' cités. Policemen kill one of them, they burn police cars and riot for weeks. The issue is that this place is totally out of control and the government isn't interested to solve it at all, so we have outbursts like that every few years.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

France's Jews Flee As Rioters Burn Paris Shops, Attack Synagogue

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http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/22/france-jewish-shops-riot_n_5608612.html

One must take care in calling such things "understandable".

Again, this is Paris' cités. Policemen kill one of them, they burn police cars and riot for weeks. The issue is that this place is totally out of control and the government isn't interested to solve it at all, so we have outbursts like that every few years.

There is a world of difference between rioting directed at "the man" or whatever, and targeted Pogroms designed to terrorize a minority group.

[swl]

You're a joke... Apparently the attack on the synagogue was a hoax. Fighting happened between some pro-palestinians and the Jewish Defense League (terrorist organization in the US, but not in
France) who was posted near the synagogue. On both side you have people who are only here to fight, and they know very well were to find each other. They are like football hooligans. And in Sarcelles many shops were looted, most of the attacked shops belong to Chaldeans (Christians then), it's likely that one was a Jewish shop but the looters just attacked anything were there was something to steal.

Also it's been Israel strategy for years to scare French Jews to push them to move to Israel. They are the biggest Jewish community in Europe and zionists want them in Israel, see for example:

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/immigration-to-israel-slowing-except-from-france/2014/01/24/162861b8-8416-11e3-a273-6ffd9cf9f4ba_story.html

[Gustaf]

I've seen several people on the internet claim it was a hoax, but nothing about it in real media. What's the source for this claim? It seems like something that would be hard to fool the French government into thinking if it weren't true.

[swl]

One source is this interview from the president of the Synagogue: http://www.itele.fr/france/video/incidents-rue-de-la-roquette-serge-benhaim-dement-toute-attaque-de-la-synagogue-88717

There is a pro-Israel gathering in the synagogue. The Jewish Defense League (more information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League) does not join the gathering and stays outside. They are not peaceful guys: the goal of the organization is to fight and they train for that.

The pro-Palestine demonstration is few tens of meters away. Even is there is no official "violent" organization on their side (some people created a Muslim Defense League, there are also some violent "Dieudonnists", but so far they have not really managed to organize the thing), there is also a number of hooligans there, who came only to fight.

Both groups look for each other, and you end up with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrhTWGvPkJ8

We have our own small replica of the Israel-Palestine conflict in France: 1% of extremists on both sides, 99% of peaceful people drawn into the conflict against their will, and the "white" far-right enjoying the show and waiting for the right time to conclude that we should get rid of both Muslims and Jews.

[dead0man]

You are mostly correct, this particular case was more hooligans vs hooligans than anything else.  The video is fun though, the cameraman takes GREAT care to rarely show one side of the brawl.

[badgate]

Finally, the Cupcake Crew has weighed in.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

[MalaspinaGold]

Anyone wondering when snowstalker is going to join the legion of brave freedom fighters defending Gaza from the vile, imperialist zionist war machine?

I hope it's soon, so he can do stuff other than post inane comics on atlas.

[Oakvale]

Anyone wondering when snowstalker is going to join the legion of brave freedom fighters defending Gaza from the vile, imperialist zionist war machine?

I hope it's soon, so he can do stuff other than post inane comics on atlas.

That's an impressive argument, you must be proud. I forgot that people literally have to go and fight in warzones in order to express an opinion on anything that doesn't currently personally affect them. (Though it is funny that your sarcastic description of Israel is actually a perfectly accurate description of the state).

[Indy Texas]

Israel has banned radio stations from giving the names of the children who have been killed thus far in the Gaza war.

Because free and democratic societies censor media all the time.

Look! Over there! Someone in Europe said something bad about Jewish people! Please direct your attention in that direction!

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

The Iron Dome, which was built with US taxpayer dollars, really encourages Israel to take a hardline and not negotiate.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The Iron Dome, which was built with US taxpayer dollars, really encourages Israel to take a hardline and not negotiate.

Not really, since it has been well over a decade since Israel has done any serious negotiations with the Palestinians. But that's because they've realized that even if they do manage to browbeat the Chiefs into signing away Palestinian land and accept a few beads in exchange for living on a reservation, the Braves will go on the warpath anyway and refuse to accept the injustice done them.

[ingemann]

The Iron Dome, which was built with US taxpayer dollars, really encourages Israel to take a hardline and not negotiate.

Not really, since it has been well over a decade since Israel has done any serious negotiations with the Palestinians. But that's because they've realized that even if they do manage to browbeat the Chiefs into signing away Palestinian land and accept a few beads in exchange for living on a reservation, the Braves will go on the warpath anyway and refuse to accept the injustice done them.

I love this comparison, I usual use Bantustans and East European Jewish ghettos as comparison, but this one was pure poetry.

[Zanas]

Which is weird because they do more THAN ANY NATION IN HISTORY at limiting civilian casualties.  What other nation calls the building before bombing it to warn the people inside?  What other nation drops a small bomb first after the phone call to show they are serious?  Yes, mistakes have been and will be made.  It's especially hard to limit casualties when the local bad guys force civilians to stay in certain places at gun point.  It's especially hard when the bad guys use their hospitals, schools, ambulances and UN facilities (all 4 of those are documented have happened in the last week) to hide or launch their terror weapons.


The IDF cares and SHOWS they care more about civilians in Gaza than the people in charge of Gaza.  I don't understand how any thinking person can come up with any other conclusion.

They care ? They CARE ? Do they also bring them candy and lollipops ? Do they also sing lullabies to their children before obliterating their building and transforming them into lifelong refugees who will live in camps ? I guess the important thing is the smile on their face when they are read a bedtime story before their father, uncles and brothers are taken into custody and shot.

Seriously. Get the f**k out with that sort of rhetorics.

If you are so lucky as to speak French, I cannot recommend this article strongly enough. The media treatment of these events is poor, to say the least.

A few things ought to be reminded. Israel and Palestine are not equal. One is a State with the strongest allies and nukes, the other is an authority split into pieces without full recognition. So a conflict is necessarily uneven.
Israel is occupying territories that are granted to Palestinians by international law. Nearly everyone acknowledges that. The UN acknowledges that. It's no better than any other territorial occupation. This is what starts everything, not the kidnapping and killing of three high schoolers or anything.
Israel is constantly violating international law. They have a segregational policy, and they won't ever f**king stop building new colonies, for f**k's sake.
Hamas is an HP organization, but they are not alone in Palestinian affairs, and they also won an election. Why they won is the question we should be asking ourselves, not how bad they are.
Both sides act in a terrorist way, i.e : to induce terror inside their opponent's minds. One side just has waaaaaay more means to do so.

So the media is trying to treat this as an even fight between equal opponents who just love fighting for whatever reason, we're just too tired to be bothered to try to understand which one anymore. They treat these "Isrealo-Palestinian recurring conflicts" as Tom & Jerry episodes. They're maniacs, nothing can end their fighting, but really there's not much harm done, is there ?

There is. And there is a way of stopping it. Israel has the move. Not the Palestinian Authority, not the Hamas. Stop the colonies. Respect international law. That would be a start. The start. If Israel finally ends up acting decent and legal, there's no reason why Hamas or other nutjobs should keep winning in Palestine.

[dead0man]

They care ?

yes

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YES!

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sometimes

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I don't think they sing them a song when they call, I'd imagine they just tell them that because Hamas has hidden rockets in the basement that it's a legitimate military target and that if they want to live, they should probably leave....hopefully Hamas lets them.

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I don't think Hamas read bedtime stories, maybe if they feature a Jewish dog being beaten.  Hamas is the only group in this fight that regularly detains Palestinians and then murders them.

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nah, I'm good.

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Agreed.

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Agreed.

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Agreed.  Which is why it's really stupid for Hamas to keep fighting....especially when they have been given several outs already.

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As I've said before, I'm no fan of the settlements, but they are LIGHT YEARS better than shooting rockets at civilians.

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Israel removed settlements in the Sinai.  No problems with the state of Egypt since.  Israel removed the settlements from Gaza and it changed nothing.  Again, I agree the settlements in the West Bank should be stopped and removed, though it will hurt Palestinians in the short term as 22,000 of them work in the settlements.

Hamas is fighting for it's life.  They wanted this fight and they got it.  It's lost most all of it's support due to it's instigation.  Hopefully they will be destroyed.  Hopefully the PA, Egypt, the West, whomever, can step right in and clean the mess up.

[TTS1996]

Anyone wondering when snowstalker is going to join the legion of brave freedom fighters defending Gaza from the vile, imperialist zionist war machine?

I hope it's soon, so he can do stuff other than post inane comics on atlas.

That's an impressive argument, you must be proud. I forgot that people literally have to go and fight in warzones in order to express an opinion on anything that doesn't currently personally affect them. (Though it is funny that your sarcastic description of Israel is actually a perfectly accurate description of the state).

 Does "to the river to the sea" not carry the hint of genocide to you?

[Cassius]

Of course, if one wants villains for this piece, on has to look no further than Hamas. This has already been mentioned several times in this thread, but I'll bring it up again; there are no Israeli settlements in Gaza. Not one. Those are located in the West Bank. You may say 'but there are still settlments in Palestine'. That is quite correct of course, but the ironic thing is that the vast majority of terrorist attacks against Israel are being launched, not from the West Bank, but from Gaza, so the settlements justification of terrorism is somewhat shaky. Now, that can be rebutted by saying 'well, its due to the Israeli blockade of Gaza'. That has a more solid foundation. However, to return to the original point of this statement, that blockade is entirely down to the actions of Hamas. The Israeli's haven't simply initiated a large scale blockade on a whim; no, it exists to try and make it more difficult for Hamas to engage in acts of terror. If Hamas disarmed, then the blockade would cease. But no, disarmament would not suit Hamas' ultimate objectives at all; these are, of course, the destruction of Fatah, control over the entirety of Palestine and in due course the destruction of the state of Israel. These are not the objectives of all Palestinians of course; if they were, then Hamas would not need to engage in violence against other Palestinians.

It is Hamas that is to blame for the deaths of Palestinian civilians in Gaza. Through its ceaseless provocation of the Israeli government through terrorist attacks and kidnappings, it constantly puts the lives of Palestinian civilians in danger, a danger magnified tenfold by its constant use of them as human shields, as well Hamas' incitement of Palestinian civilians to put themselves in harms way (one of their spokesman stated that they had a policy of 'people confronting Israeli warplanes with their bare chests'). It is clear that, to them, the civilians of the Gaza strip are mere 'human resources', do be thrown into the meat grinder of their war on Israel. What is more, it is entirely futile, given that there is no way that Hamas can militarily defeat Israel by itself. Nor can it hope for the international 'community' to come to its aid, since they appear to have pissed off most of their potential supporters in the Arab world, whilst the West, God willing, will never help such scum as those who make up the body of Hamas' leadership. So Hamas is an organisation pursuing an impossible goal, one leading to the deaths of many Palestinians and Israelis. And they probably won't stop until they are physically eradicated.

In short, Hamas are pretty clearly the 'villains' of this story.

[swl]

It is Hamas that is to blame for the deaths of Palestinian civilians in Gaza.

No. You can find as many excuses as you want, you can invoke legitimate defense, but the truth is that the one pulling the trigger is 100% responsible for it. Whether it should be excused or not is another issue.

[dead0man]

Did you really just insinuate legitimate defense isn't a legitimate defense?

[swl]

What do you mean? If I kill someone, I am the one responsible for it, whether third-parties consider it legitimate or not.

Likewise, Israel is 100% responsible for the way they decide to react to Hamas' provocations.



It looks like the situation is turning violent in the West Bank, we may be at the beginning of a new uprising there.

[Silent Hunter]

What do you mean? If I kill someone, I am the one responsible for it, whether third-parties consider it legitimate or not.

Then Hamas is 100% responsible for their actions, then?