The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[swl]

Aren't we all?

[dead0man]

Well, you said

you can invoke legitimate defense, but the truth is that the one pulling the trigger is 100% responsible for it.

Wouldn't a legitimate defense be a legitimate defense?

What do you mean? If I kill someone, I am the one responsible for it, whether third-parties consider it legitimate or not.

If those third parties are the law, then it matters a lot.  If you kill someone in self defense (which is what this is), sure, you are responsible and have to live with what you did, but you were still in the right, and that's all that matters.

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Sure, and Hamas is 100% responsible for their actions.  Their turning down a ceasefire is the ONLY reason Israel started the ground offensive.

[swl]

Their turning down a ceasefire is the ONLY reason Israel started the ground offensive.

I have to disagree with you on that: Netanyahu repeated several times that Israel started the ground offensive in order to destroy the tunnels between Gaza and Israel.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Israel removed settlements in the Sinai.  No problems with the state of Egypt since.  Israel removed the settlements from Gaza and it changed nothing.

There's a ton of difference between a mostly barren Sinai and the tightly packed ticking time-bomb of a ghetto that is Gaza.

[dead0man]

Their turning down a ceasefire is the ONLY reason Israel started the ground offensive.

I have to disagree with you on that: Netanyahu repeated several times that Israel started the ground offensive in order to destroy the tunnels between Gaza and Israel.

You think Israel would have gone ahead with the ground offensive if Hamas accepted the ceasefire?

Israel removed settlements in the Sinai.  No problems with the state of Egypt since.  Israel removed the settlements from Gaza and it changed nothing.

There's a ton of difference between a mostly barren Sinai and the tightly packed ticking time-bomb of a ghetto that is Gaza.

What does that have to do with Israel dismantling the settlements?  There were settlements in the Sinai, and for peace Israel gave them up.  The peace lasted.  There were settlements in Gaza, and for peace Israel gave them up.  The peace didn't last.

[swl]

You think Israel would have gone ahead with the ground offensive if Hamas accepted the ceasefire?

How could I know? I am not in their heads.
When it comes to explaining Israel's offensive, I consider Netanyahu to be a more trustworthy source than you, I think you can understand that.

[dead0man]

Israel would NOT have invaded Gaza had they accepted the ceasefire.  Israel had already accepted it at the time.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

Israel removed settlements in the Sinai.  No problems with the state of Egypt since.  Israel removed the settlements from Gaza and it changed nothing.

That probably has something to do with the fact that Israel does not control all of Egypt's borders, does not deny Egypt's right to self-determination, doesn't kill thousands of Egyptian civilians and try to blame it on "human shields",  and doesn't demands that Egypt not have a military for statehood.

And even if the settlements are going on in the West Bank rather than Gaza, they're still supposed to be the same country. During the Revolutionary War, the Boston Massacre still inflamed tensions throughout the colonies even though it took place in Boston. Should only Bostonians have reacted, and with a large British military presence in the city? Because Israel still exercises full military control and 61% of the civil control over the West Bank. Should only the affected part of a country react when an invasion/disaster strikes?

Attacks do occur from the West Bank, but with such heavily Israeli presence it becomes difficult to put up much resistance. In Gaza, they literally walled it off and let Escape from New York happen and put such restrictions on it as to create living hell. Then every other year or so, they "mow the lawn" by carrying out bombing runs and partial-invasions that results in hundreds and up to thousands of civilian casualties.

Why are you such an apologist for a country that so blatantly disregards human rights and international law? Hamas is a terrorist organization, yes, but so is the IDF. Hamas has Qassams, some guns, and suicide bombers, but Israel has state-of-the-art aircraft, tanks, drones, ships, and other weapons sold by Western nations such as the US, France, and the UK and receives billions of dollars in support and the sympathies of the most of the global media network.

[dead0man]

Israel removed settlements in the Sinai.  No problems with the state of Egypt since.  Israel removed the settlements from Gaza and it changed nothing.

That probably has something to do with the fact that Israel does not control all of Egypt's borders, does not deny Egypt's right to self-determination, doesn't kill thousands of Egyptian civilians and try to blame it on "human shields",  and doesn't demands that Egypt not have a military for statehood.

And even if the settlements are going on in the West Bank rather than Gaza, they're still supposed to be the same country. During the Revolutionary War, the Boston Massacre still inflamed tensions throughout the colonies even though it took place in Boston. Should only Bostonians have reacted, and with a large British military presence in the city? Because Israel still exercises full military control and 61% of the civil control over the West Bank. Should only the affected part of a country react when an invasion/disaster strikes?

Attacks do occur from the West Bank, but with such heavily Israeli presence it becomes difficult to put up much resistance. In Gaza, they literally walled it off and let Escape from New York happen and put such restrictions on it as to create living hell. Then every other year or so, they "mow the lawn" by carrying out bombing runs and partial-invasions that results in hundreds and up to thousands of civilian casualties.

You seem to be under the impression that as soon as Israel withdrew from Gaza was when the blockade started.  That's not true.

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Yes, it is really stupid that Hamas keeps attacking with everybody knowing this.  And you may or may not know this, but Hamas also gets billions in aid (and uses it to build tunnels and rockets, not to fix their failing infrastructure) and sympathies from much of the global media network.

[Indy Texas]

I think dead0man is blissfully ignorant of the fact that Israel supported Hamas in the '90s to undermine the PLO, which hated Hamas.

And now they're paying for it, much as we had to pay after we supported those anti-communist "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan in the '80s only to see many of them turn their guns on us.

[dead0man]

I think dead0man is blissfully ignorant of the fact that Israel supported Hamas in the '90s to undermine the PLO, which hated Hamas.

And now they're paying for it, much as we had to pay after we supported those anti-communist "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan in the '80s only to see many of them turn their guns on us.

Except I am aware of it (you guys act like this is my first rodeo for some reason) and it's nowhere near as extensive as you are letting on....but that's ok as I suspect this is your first rodeo.

[dead0man]

Back on subject, I suspect both sides will accept this current ceasefire...here's why...
A.IDF is reporting that early on Hamas fought like banshees, in the last couple of days, they are turning tail and running, leaving sh**t behind.  Morale has plummeted.
2.the IDF claims to need another week to remove all the tunnels, Hamas doesn't want that.
III.Hamas leaders are claiming victory
e.Israel will be strong armed into taking it whether they want to or not

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Back on subject, I suspect both sides will accept this current ceasefire...here's why...
A.IDF is reporting that early on Hamas fought like banshees, in the last couple of days, they are turning tail and running, leaving sh**t behind.  Morale has plummeted.
2.the IDF claims to need another week to remove all the tunnels, Hamas doesn't want that.
III.Hamas leaders are claiming victory
e.Israel will be strong armed into taking it whether they want to or not

Most likely. The only way this can be screwed up at this point is by Hamas doing something insanely stupid - another kidnapping - that Israel can't ignore.

I expect some more low-level operations to continue to try to remove the tunnels, though.

[dead0man]

The only way this can be screwed up at this point is by Hamas doing something insanely stupid - another kidnapping - that Israel can't ignore.

They do have a corpse (from the APC that got tagged on the second night), lets hope Israel doesn't make some crazy deal to get the body back.

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Probably only on the Israeli side though.  The IDF does need to figure out a way to find the tunnels, the tech there is lagging.

[Oakvale]

Anyone wondering when snowstalker is going to join the legion of brave freedom fighters defending Gaza from the vile, imperialist zionist war machine?

I hope it's soon, so he can do stuff other than post inane comics on atlas.

That's an impressive argument, you must be proud. I forgot that people literally have to go and fight in warzones in order to express an opinion on anything that doesn't currently personally affect them. (Though it is funny that your sarcastic description of Israel is actually a perfectly accurate description of the state).

Seriously, go die in a ditch, anti-semitic scumbag. And as for your signature - if you really think Hamas is just a poor ol' caught fish in a barrel, ineffectually spitting seawater at a metal shield and getting undeserved insults in return - you must be utterly mad. Does "to the river to the sea" not carry the hint of genocide to you?

lmao

What on earth have I said that's "anti-semitic"? It doesn't matter, I assume if you continue throwing that tired old accusation around against anyone who dares criticise Israel like some kind of ancient talisman I'll eventually be transformed into a pillar of salt where I stand.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Back on subject, I suspect both sides will accept this current ceasefire...

Wrong: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28494081

The idea that a US government is capable of strong-arming the Israeli government into doing anything it doesn't want to do doesn't really meet reality.  Sometimes the Israelis let it appear that is what is happening for political reasons in Jerusalem and/or Washington, but clearly Israel thinks another day or two of fighting is preferable to a ceasefire right now.

[dead0man]

Aye, I was just coming back here to post that.  Hopefully they can finish destroying the tunnels then.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The trouble with achieving a quick ceasefire is that -with things having gone as far as they have - there's pressure from both populations to get something out of this, to make what's happened worth it (i.e. as well as this rejection from the Israeli government and the apparent reasons for it, we can see previous rejections from Hamas and recent statements from them, and also from Fatah et al even as well; a tying of the blockade to a ceasefire and so on). Which adds to the additional domestic factors prolonging things on both sides. Sigh.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

As to responsibility for civilian deaths, obviously the IDF is (like any military) directly responsible for any deaths they cause, even if they aren't all entirely deliberate ones (an unintended death caused by callousness or a fyck up or both is still a death). But it isn't unreasonable to suggest that Hamas has a pretty significant degree of indirect responsibility as well.

[TTS1996]

As to responsibility for civilian deaths, obviously the IDF is (like any military) directly responsible for any deaths they cause, even if they aren't all entirely deliberate ones (an unintended death caused by callousness or a fyck up or both is still a death). But it isn't unreasonable to suggest that Hamas has a pretty significant degree of indirect responsibility as well.

Surely this last sentence contains more negatives and double negatives than you've ever posted up here before (and that's saying something); indeed, more than any 18 word sentence has ever had? Am I right to translate it as "Gosh! Hamas isn't all good"?

[swl]

Which adds to the additional domestic factors prolonging things on both sides. Sigh.

Also both sides are convinced that they will be in a stronger position for negotiations if the conflict last a few more days.

Kerry is obviously tired of spending so much time on this while the situation in Ukraine/Russia is getting worse.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Netanyahu and company need to be lined up at Nuremburg, don't they?

Putting aside the silliness of this, people need to stop pretending that anything short of a total war with a nuclear power is going to make this happen.

Israel is a powerful nation. Israel is going to defend itself, especially if the very nations that tried to wipe out its people two generations ago get any ideas about taking them down for crimes that are dwarfed by those going on in Russia as we speak.

[dead0man]

or Syria, or Iraq.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

or Syria, or Iraq.

Yes, but in Iraq it's non-state actors.

Either way, the world has made very clear that they don't care when tens of thousands are killed in Syria and thousands in Russian-backed uprisings in Ukraine, so they really have no leg to stand on to take action against Israel.

[dead0man]

Aye.  It's best to ignore Snow though.  There is no arguing with bigotry that deep.