The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[dead0man]

I hope it happens to dead0man just to see his reaction. I am sure he will be very understanding.

I have no idea how'd react, but I can guarantee you one funking thing, my grand kids wouldn't still be "refugees" firing rockets across the Missouri River 70 years later.

[IceSpear]

This whole tragedy is so predictable. Zionists continuing their colonization of Palestine and accelerating it through the building of settlements leading to more desperation on the Palestinian side. Hapless leaders in Palestine not being able to even come into an agreement amongst themselves, let alone being able to negotiate with Israel. Stupid terrorists taking the opportunity to launch rockets they know will not reach their targets due to the Iron Dome. Israel, despite possessing the Iron dome, invades Gaza knowing it will cause massive civilian casualties, despite claiming they care about civilian casualties. And of course self righteous Americans pretending like Israel is in the right even though they would violently destroy anyone who tries to take their land. I really want Native Americans to go back and just randomly take over houses built on top of their ancestral land. I hope it happens to dead0man just to see his reaction. I am sure he will be very understanding.

Because I'm sure you'd willingly surrender your property and assets to the Native Americans who used to live there.

[Indy Texas]

I hope it happens to dead0man just to see his reaction. I am sure he will be very understanding.

I have no idea how'd react, but I can guarantee you one funking thing, my grand kids wouldn't still be "refugees" firing rockets across the Missouri River 70 years later.

What would they be doing, then? Assuming the Native Americans refused to give them citizenship or freedom of movement and made them all live in, say, a section of Oklahoma that was under a complete embargo?

[dead0man]

I'm tired of wasting my time answering your drive by's.  You don't discuss things, you make accusation posts and then flee only to come back several days later with more of the same.  Perhaps you should just stick to bullying Bushie.  You're much better at that.


PA not happy at all with Kerry

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[Indy Texas]

I'm tired of wasting my time answering your drive by's.  You don't discuss things, you make accusation posts and then flee only to come back several days later with more of the same.  Perhaps you should just stick to bullying Bushie.  You're much better at that.

You're the one who talks about "good guys" and "bad guys" like you're a f^&#ing eight year-old who watched Top Gun when he snuck out of bed.

As far as I can tell, you're a card-carrying member of the Israel Can Do No Wrong Ever Caucus. You complain about Hamas targeting civilians when Hamas has killed 2 Israeli civilians and Israel has killed nearly 700 civilians. (But I'm sure they "really do care" as you're so fond of saying)

Bushie is a lazy, fat f#$%. And you're a stubborn armchair general with an immature "Kill them bad guys, woo hoo! Yee haw!" attitude to foreign policy. And tomorrow, we're all going to wake up and Bushie is still going to be a lazy, fat f#$% and you're still going to be a dollar store John McCain. Who's the real waste of time?

[swl]

It's true that things don't look good for the PA (they can only blame themselves though), a landslide victory for Hamas in the general elections seems very likely, even in the West Bank.

[dead0man]

<whinging deleted>

See, you are MUCH better at being a bully than you are at debate, stick to that.

[Sbane]

This whole tragedy is so predictable. Zionists continuing their colonization of Palestine and accelerating it through the building of settlements leading to more desperation on the Palestinian side. Hapless leaders in Palestine not being able to even come into an agreement amongst themselves, let alone being able to negotiate with Israel. Stupid terrorists taking the opportunity to launch rockets they know will not reach their targets due to the Iron Dome. Israel, despite possessing the Iron dome, invades Gaza knowing it will cause massive civilian casualties, despite claiming they care about civilian casualties. And of course self righteous Americans pretending like Israel is in the right even though they would violently destroy anyone who tries to take their land. I really want Native Americans to go back and just randomly take over houses built on top of their ancestral land. I hope it happens to dead0man just to see his reaction. I am sure he will be very understanding.

Who needs hypothetical hypocrisy when you can find some Americans complaining about Israeli colonialism while, you know, living in and loving America?
 

I don't think the situation in Israel and America can be compared. Maybe if we are talking about the America that was actively enslaving blacks and removing Natives from their land, sure. But in 2014, Israel is the one actively being a colonial power.

And my point was more about understanding why Palestinians act the way they do, and the inability of many in America to understand it . Obviously it would be preferable if they acted like Gandhi, Mandela or Dr. King, but it should be understandable if they don't. Not everyone can live up to those standards, and for whatever reason, the Middle East isn't the sort if place that is very open to non-violent resistance.

[Sbane]

I hope it happens to dead0man just to see his reaction. I am sure he will be very understanding.

I have no idea how'd react, but I can guarantee you one funking thing, my grand kids wouldn't still be "refugees" firing rockets across the Missouri River 70 years later.

So what do you think the Palestinians should do? I think the only obvious solution to go is the non-violent resistance route and shame Israel into giving them their own autonomous land, but can you not understand why Palestinians might be just a tad bit pissed off by this situation that was imposed on them? Germany and others in Europe orchestrate the holocaust. Then they fukc over the Palestinians to make themselves feel better. Yay colonialism!

[Sbane]

This whole tragedy is so predictable. Zionists continuing their colonization of Palestine and accelerating it through the building of settlements leading to more desperation on the Palestinian side. Hapless leaders in Palestine not being able to even come into an agreement amongst themselves, let alone being able to negotiate with Israel. Stupid terrorists taking the opportunity to launch rockets they know will not reach their targets due to the Iron Dome. Israel, despite possessing the Iron dome, invades Gaza knowing it will cause massive civilian casualties, despite claiming they care about civilian casualties. And of course self righteous Americans pretending like Israel is in the right even though they would violently destroy anyone who tries to take their land. I really want Native Americans to go back and just randomly take over houses built on top of their ancestral land. I hope it happens to dead0man just to see his reaction. I am sure he will be very understanding.

Because I'm sure you'd willingly surrender your property and assets to the Native Americans who used to live there.

Hell no I wouldn't. I am also not one of those who think Palestinians are in the wrong for trying to fight for the land they have lived on for generations, no matter who may have lived there before them.

[Gustaf]

No one has ever questioned the results of Turkish elections. Even the opposition doesn't claim elections are rigged.

Well, that is obviously untrue - I just did. If you want someone who isn't me you can read this: http://erikmeyersson.com/2014/04/01/is-something-rotten-in-ankaras-mayoral-election-a-very-preliminary-statistical-analysis/

[dead0man]

I hope it happens to dead0man just to see his reaction. I am sure he will be very understanding.

I have no idea how'd react, but I can guarantee you one funking thing, my grand kids wouldn't still be "refugees" firing rockets across the Missouri River 70 years later.

So what do you think the Palestinians should do? I think the only obvious solution to go is the non-violent resistance route and shame Israel into giving them their own autonomous land,

That's exactly what I've always suggested.  If they go all Gandhi, Israel will have no choice but to let them, and I have no doubt that they would.

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I get, I suppose, why they went all "push 'em into da sea" in 1947, but 3 generations later and nothing to show for it (and in fact, a lot of lost...ahem...ground), well sir, that's insane.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

but can you not understand why Palestinians might be just a tad bit pissed off by this situation that was imposed on them? Germany and others in Europe orchestrate the holocaust. Then they eff over the Palestinians to make themselves feel better. Yay colonialism!

I get, I suppose, why they went all "push 'em into da sea" in 1947, but 3 generations later and nothing to show for it (and in fact, a lot of lost...ahem...ground), well sir, that's insane.

More like typical human behavior.  Of course, the Zionists benefit as long as the Arabs aren't truly united.  (It was lack of Arab unity along with massive overconfidence that led to heavy corruption that let Israel survive 1948 in the first place.)  A united Arab regime with the patience to wait until Israel no longer has military superiority is what will most likely extinguish the State of Israel.  Won't happen for at least fifty years and more likely longer than that, but Israel will not always have military superiority over its neighbors, yet the Zionists act like they will.

[dead0man]

link-Institute for Palestine Studies

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This was from 2012.  Weird that the UN (nor anybody outside of this report AFAICT) haven't made a stink about these refugee child slave labor deaths.

It also mentions that each tunnel costs between $80k and $200k.  Imagine if those millions had been spent on, say, I don't know, infrastructure?  Paying employees?  Throwing it in the air over the closest market?  Education?  But alas, it's more important to try and sneak into Israel and kidnap/murder some Juice.

[dead0man]

but can you not understand why Palestinians might be just a tad bit pissed off by this situation that was imposed on them? Germany and others in Europe orchestrate the holocaust. Then they eff over the Palestinians to make themselves feel better. Yay colonialism!

I get, I suppose, why they went all "push 'em into da sea" in 1947, but 3 generations later and nothing to show for it (and in fact, a lot of lost...ahem...ground), well sir, that's insane.

More like typical human behavior.

Is it though?  A lot of refugees were created around the same time, yet few of them have grandchildren fighting the same fight grandpa did.  India/Pakistan is the only other one I can think of off the top of my head....and I'm pretty sure India wouldn't sit back and let rockets be fired at their civilians either.

[Sbane]

but can you not understand why Palestinians might be just a tad bit pissed off by this situation that was imposed on them? Germany and others in Europe orchestrate the holocaust. Then they eff over the Palestinians to make themselves feel better. Yay colonialism!

I get, I suppose, why they went all "push 'em into da sea" in 1947, but 3 generations later and nothing to show for it (and in fact, a lot of lost...ahem...ground), well sir, that's insane.

More like typical human behavior.

Is it though?  A lot of refugees were created around the same time, yet few of them have grandchildren fighting the same fight grandpa did.  India/Pakistan is the only other one I can think of off the top of my head....and I'm pretty sure India wouldn't sit back and let rockets be fired at their civilians either.

I don't have so much a problem with what Israel is currently doing, but rather with their overall approach to the situation. Hamas firing rockets into Israel is just silliness and to be expected from them. Those people just cannot envision any other option to protest their oppression than with violence.

[dead0man]

Of course, the Zionists benefit as long as the Arabs aren't truly united.  (It was lack of Arab unity along with massive overconfidence that led to heavy corruption that let Israel survive 1948 in the first place.)  A united Arab regime with the patience to wait until Israel no longer has military superiority is what will most likely extinguish the State of Israel.  Won't happen for at least fifty years and more likely longer than that, but Israel will not always have military superiority over its neighbors, yet the Zionists act like they will.

and I'm not so sure about this either.  Have you ever read Why Arabs Lose Wars?  Very informative.  The short of it is:
A.their officers suck/are afraid to take initiative
B.they (generally) don't have NCOs, the backbone of any good military
C.they don't care about maintenance or training
D.they don't understand their enemy and don't try to learn
E.they don't trust anybody
F.the Army doesn't talk to the Air Force in battle, hell one Army division won't talk to another Army division in battle, much less communication between states


There would need to be a large cultural change in how they fight if they ever think they could win against any modern military, especially one that knows how they operate.

[dead0man]

Eh, likening this to India and Pakistan is a stretch, I'd say.

sure sure, but I was just saying that was the only large refugee situation from the time frame that is still "hot" today.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Of course, the Zionists benefit as long as the Arabs aren't truly united.  (It was lack of Arab unity along with massive overconfidence that led to heavy corruption that let Israel survive 1948 in the first place.)  A united Arab regime with the patience to wait until Israel no longer has military superiority is what will most likely extinguish the State of Israel.  Won't happen for at least fifty years and more likely longer than that, but Israel will not always have military superiority over its neighbors, yet the Zionists act like they will.

and I'm not so sure about this either.  Have you ever read Why Arabs Lose Wars?  Very informative.  The short of it is:
A.their officers suck/are afraid to take initiative
B.they (generally) don't have NCOs, the backbone of any good military
C.they don't care about maintenance or training
D.they don't understand their enemy and don't try to learn
E.they don't trust anybody
F.the Army doesn't talk to the Air Force in battle, hell one Army division won't talk to another Army division in battle, much less communication between states


There would need to be a large cultural change in how they fight if they ever think they could win against any modern military, especially one that knows how they operate.

Agreed, the necessary culture change is why I said it would take a minimum of fifty years.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

but can you not understand why Palestinians might be just a tad bit pissed off by this situation that was imposed on them? Germany and others in Europe orchestrate the holocaust. Then they eff over the Palestinians to make themselves feel better. Yay colonialism!

I get, I suppose, why they went all "push 'em into da sea" in 1947, but 3 generations later and nothing to show for it (and in fact, a lot of lost...ahem...ground), well sir, that's insane.

More like typical human behavior.

Is it though?  A lot of refugees were created around the same time, yet few of them have grandchildren fighting the same fight grandpa did.  India/Pakistan is the only other one I can think of off the top of my head....and I'm pretty sure India wouldn't sit back and let rockets be fired at their civilians either.

Most refugees are able to assimilate into another culture. (Or at least prosper within another culture.)  For various reasons, the Palestinians have been denied that outlet by and large.  The refugees from the partition of India weren't herded into camps.  By and large the major irritant still smoldering from partition is Kashmir where India took over a majority Muslim area because it had been a princely state with a Hindu ruler.  Kashmir should have gone to Pakistan at partition.

[dead0man]

Most refugees are able to assimilate into another culture. (Or at least prosper within another culture.)  For various reasons, the Palestinians have been denied that outlet by and large.  The refugees from the partition of India weren't herded into camps.

Israel gets ALL the blame for this, but there are at least 4 other countries that should share that blame.  Not that I don't get why they don't (and it's not just because they support the Palestinians right of return either).*

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Perhaps.  Do you think India should give it up now? (that is NOT a loaded question re-the Israel/Palestinian situation)




*too many negatives in there, but I think it makes sense

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

By and large the major irritant still smoldering from partition is Kashmir where India took over a majority Muslim area because it had been a princely state with a Hindu ruler.  Kashmir should have gone to Pakistan at partition.

Perhaps.  Do you think India should give it up now? (that is NOT a loaded question re-the Israel/Palestinian situation)

Ideally, Kashmir would be independent, as at a distance that appears to be what the locals want.  However, independence isn't truly an option.  Possibly if India had acted differently in 1947, it could have made Kashmir into a client state a la Bangladesh two decades later, but that isn't an option now.  If only Kashmir were affected, I think India could be persuaded to allow a referendum there, but with smoldering independence and/or autonomous independence movements in various parts of the subcontinent, I can't see anyone agreeing to a referendum, even if they could agree on how to hold one.  Neither Pakistan or India want to encourage minority self-determination right now.

[Sbane]

I think Kashmiris should be given a referendum with 3 option; Pakistan, India or independence. Administering free and fair elections would be a challenge though and the referendum should require a majority to pass, meaning the chance of it failing to do anything would be high. I also don't see such a referendum occurring. The best case scenario is a semi-autonomous state of Kashmir, which it sort of already is, except for the soldiers....In any case, I am sure Pakistan would again invade an independent Kashmir, sending us back to square one.

[Simfan34]

As a whole or district-by-district?  Of course, the Maharajah wanted independence, but the Indians, as was also the case in Hyderabad, Manipur, and (eventually), Sikkim, were unwilling to accept this. One wonders how things would have been different had the majority of the  princely states opted for independence rather than ascension- perhaps if they had been able to foresee the abolition of their privileges.

But what does this have to do with Israel?!

[Sbane]

But what does this have to do with Israel?!

Nothing at all. Let's get back to the issue at hand.