The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[The Mikado]

If anything a proper and regularised Palestinian military would be in Israel's interests for several very obvious reasons.

No doubt.  Under this metaphor, Fatah would be the Haganah and Hamas the Irgun...the ungovernable radical militia dedicated to terrorism to drive out the colonial occupation.  Such a force might get popular support while the revolt is ongoing, but ends up the first force purged after independence is actually achieved. 

[swl]

Notice that part at the end?  Even they admit (with the silence) that the violence will continue even if Israel gives into their unreasonable demands.

So, the leader or Hamas agreed to a two-state solution, according to your quote. Why are you deliberately lying and pretending the opposite? Of course there is going to be violence between the two states, the ideal solution would be for Israelis and Palestinians to suddenly become best friends (France-Germany way), but the truth is that their relations will likely be something like the India-Pakistan relations, unless some miracle happen.

[dead0man]

You have great skill in selective reading.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

[Bull Moose Base]

Notice that part at the end?  Even they admit (with the silence) that the violence will continue even if Israel gives into their unreasonable demands.

So, the leader or Hamas agreed to a two-state solution, according to your quote. Why are you deliberately lying and pretending the opposite? Of course there is going to be violence between the two states, the ideal solution would be for Israelis and Palestinians to suddenly become best friends (France-Germany way), but the truth is that their relations will likely be something like the India-Pakistan relations, unless some miracle happen.

India isn't fighting to get Pakistan back.

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http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Hamas-says-it-would-never-accept-two-state-solution-wont-give-up-one-inch-of-land-339682

A piece on the failed peace process.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118751/how-israel-palestine-peace-deal-died

[Vosem]

You really can't do any better than a mixture of made-up quotes and quotes from has-beens? Ignoring the remarkable diversity in political opinions, religious beliefs, et cetera that exist among 'ordinary Israeli citizens' (~20% are Muslims, for instance), Yosef is literally dead of old age, Sharon has never been in the government and has basically had no influence since his father went into a coma in 2006, Ben-Ari was always an incredibly fringey figure who was barely elected in 2009 and was defeated in 2013; Yishai is an opposition figure and Dichter is a has-been. Katz is the only figure on that list with any influence over Israeli policy in 2014. Also I looked up several of those quotes (specifically, the Dichter and Katz quotes) and couldn't find any source or context other than just repetitions of that list, which leads me to suspect that they are fake.

[Indy Texas]

dead0man, how would you have reacted if you were alive in the early 20th century and the future Israelis were doing things like blowing up hotels and killing British soldiers. They got rewarded for those actions with their own country.

[dead0man]

It's kind of funny that even the Jewish terrorists called before hand to warn people.

To answer your question, I would have been against the terrorists, just like most Zionists were at the time.

[Indy Texas]

It's kind of funny that even the Jewish terrorists called before hand to warn people.

To answer your question, I would have been against the terrorists, just like most Zionists were at the time.

Citations needed.

[dead0man]

It's not a good sign that so many people on your side are so ignorant of the history.  Anyway....
cite the 1st

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2nd link

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[Indy Texas]

It's not a good sign that so many people on your side are so ignorant of the history.  Anyway....
cite the 1st

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2nd link

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Bolded items emphasis mine. Calling the hotel operator is fair warning? The staff probably assumed it was a prank. I wonder if their descendants had the courtesy to call that UN school before proceeding to attack it.

Official statements from two Jewish organizations and David Ben-Gurion = a majority of Zionists?

Anyway, you're missing the point. People blew a bunch of s#@% up and demanded their own state, and they were subsequently given their own state. That kind of sets a precedent. Is it surprising that another group of people is presently blowing s#@% up and demanding their own state?

You keep screaming bloody murder about "firing rockets at civilians" when a whopping three Israeli civilians have actually been killed by rockets in this present conflict. Ten Palestinian civilians were killed by Israeli raids just in the West Bank, which isn't even where the conflict is taking place.

So tell me just what it is that you would do if you were a resident of Gaza? You're not allowed to leave. You can't import or export goods or services and as a result you're probably unemployed. Even if you don't like Hamas, they're the only game in town. And Israel has zero intention of ever granting you sovereignty, rocket attacks or not. So what, at that point, would you suggest the people of Gaza do?

[Bull Moose Base]

It's not a good sign that so many people on your side are so ignorant of the history.  Anyway....
cite the 1st

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2nd link

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Bolded items emphasis mine. Calling the hotel operator is fair warning? The staff probably assumed it was a prank. I wonder if their descendants had the courtesy to call that UN school before proceeding to attack it.

Official statements from two Jewish organizations and David Ben-Gurion = a majority of Zionists?

Anyway, you're missing the point. People blew a bunch of s#@% up and demanded their own state, and they were subsequently given their own state. That kind of sets a precedent. Is it surprising that another group of people is presently blowing s#@% up and demanding their own state?

You keep screaming bloody murder about "firing rockets at civilians" when a whopping three Israeli civilians have actually been killed by rockets in this present conflict. Ten Palestinian civilians were killed by Israeli raids just in the West Bank, which isn't even where the conflict is taking place.

So tell me just what it is that you would do if you were a resident of Gaza? You're not allowed to leave. You can't import or export goods or services and as a result you're probably unemployed. Even if you don't like Hamas, they're the only game in town. And Israel has zero intention of ever granting you sovereignty, rocket attacks or not. So what, at that point, would you suggest the people of Gaza do?

Not defending their tactic but the Irgun wasn't demanding Britain be part of Israel.

The people of Gaza are in a horrific situation obviously. They should have an Arab Spring to protest Hamas rule. I get those who are Hamas opponents being too afraid to. Hamas would presumably violently quash protests as their benefactor Iran did. But Gazans should call for Hamas to disarm so as to remove any justification for the blockade, and reduce the risk of having rockets stored in or fired from next to a location with civilians. And they should call for new elections and democratic rule.

[dead0man]

Bolded items emphasis mine. Calling the hotel operator is fair warning?

It's MUCH more than Hamas gives.

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You might not have heard, but that was just another Pallywood story.  google link

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If you have something pointing the other way, I'd like to see it.

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Like I've also repeatedly said, they need to go the Gandhi, MLK Jr way.  Clearly launching rockets at civilians (I said it again...repeating facts is fun!) doesn't get them what they want (other than the PR deaths of their own of course).

Why do you think murdering civilians is better than the peaceful way?

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

India only became independent because Britain was broke and the only other path was a war for independence that Britain would have obviously lost anyway. The American civil rights movement only succeeded in overturning Jim Crow by appealing to favorable elements in the government and (arguably) due to the legacy of having faced two racist empires in World War II (and to say that the American civil rights movement was a success in its real goal of racial equality is obviously idiotic)--and neither movement ruled out violence as a last resort (pacifism is an idiotic ideology which inherently sides with the oppressor over the oppressed).

Peaceful resistance from Palestinians has been tried and has led only to more settlements. The only solution is for Israel to be cut off from the rest of the world the way South Africa was, and for demographic trends to go long enough to force Israel to choose between letting Palestine go (most likely becoming a bi-national Palestinian state) and diving into pure genocide. If that fails (as the South African isolation strategy could have) and Israel moves further right, an international coalition to at least decapitate the serpent and send some guys to The Hague would not be off the table.

Yes, there is clear evidence that some civilian sites in Gaza have been used for military purposes by the Gazan government. However, given how little damage the Hamas rockets have done and how many civilian deaths in Gaza there have been that the "human shield" rationalization can't excuse, Israel's bombing of civilians from the air (and completely known shooting of unarmed civilians on the ground, something which some of the filth in the IDF have openly bragged about on the internet) is inexcusable and anyone with either a heart or a brain should want to see the Israeli colonialist government defeated.

[Indy Texas]

Like I've also repeatedly said, they need to go the Gandhi, MLK Jr way.

African-Americans in 1960s America and Indians under the British Raj were deprived of many political rights, but their economic and humanitarian situations were far better than anything Gazans experience. Quite frankly, the Palestinians would be so lucky if Israel paid half the attention to them that the British did to the Indians. The British left India an infrastructure of bureaucracy and civil institutions that mimicked those of Britain or any other developed Western country - they were spared the hellish post-colonial strife of places like sub-Saharan Africa. Israel has done the opposite - they've more or less guaranteed that Gaza and the West Bank are wholly ungovernable by the Palestinians or by Israel.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

[Bull Moose Base]

India only became independent because Britain was broke and the only other path was a war for independence that Britain would have obviously lost anyway. The American civil rights movement only succeeded in overturning Jim Crow by appealing to favorable elements in the favorable government and (arguably) due to the legacy of having faced two racist empires in World War II (and to say that the American civil rights movement was a success in its real goal of racial equality is obviously idiotic)--and neither movement ruled out violence as a last resort (pacifism is an idiotic ideology which inherently sides with the oppressor over the oppressed).

Peaceful resistance from Palestinians has been tried and has led only to more settlements. The only solution is for Israel to be cut off from the rest of the world the way South Africa was, and for demographic trends to go long enough to force Israel to choose between letting Palestine go (most likely becoming a bi-national Palestinian state) and diving into pure genocide. If that fails (as the South African isolation strategy could have) and Israel moves further right, an international coalition to at least decapitate the serpent and send some guys to The Hague would not be off the table.

Yes, there is clear evidence that some civilian sites in Gaza have been used for military purposes by the Gazan government. However, given how little damage the Hamas rockets have done and how many civilian deaths in Gaza there have been that the "human shield" rationalization can't excuse, Israel's bombing of civilians from the air (and completely known shooting of unarmed civilians on the ground, something which some of the filth in the IDF have openly bragged about on the internet) is inexcusable and anyone with either a heart or a brain should want to see them destroyed.

A solid majority of Israelis support a 2-state solution even now. It doesn't take a genius to see that their historic traumas, plus extreme rhetoric from fundamentalists, plus violent attacks targeting civilians give Israelis enough existential fear to allow rightwing elements more power over policy. Without violent attacks against it, Israel's territory would have been even smaller than the 67 borders if it had been able to sustain at all. But if you want to go on condoning violent "resistance" and mocking the renouncing of it, knock yourself out.

Yes, any soldier who targets a civilian with no military purpose should be charged. But that view is consistent with saying Israel still has no obligation to tolerate a barrage of rocket fire even if their hit rate is very low, nor tunnels penetrating their territory to set up attacks, even if those attacks haven't been carried out yet.

[dead0man]

Like I've also repeatedly said, they need to go the Gandhi, MLK Jr way.

African-Americans in 1960s America and Indians under the British Raj were deprived of many political rights, but their economic and humanitarian situations were far better than anything Gazans experience. Quite frankly, the Palestinians would be so lucky if Israel paid half the attention to them that the British did to the Indians. The British left India an infrastructure of bureaucracy and civil institutions that mimicked those of Britain or any other developed Western country - they were spared the hellish post-colonial strife of places like sub-Saharan Africa. Israel has done the opposite - they've more or less guaranteed that Gaza and the West Bank are wholly ungovernable by the Palestinians or by Israel.

Israel provides clean water, electricity and jobs.  The Gazans could provide these things themselves with the billions given to them over the years, but instead they forced children to dig tunnels until they died.  Tunnels that cost many many millions of dollars.  Those dollars could have been spent fixing sh**t, instead it goes towards murder.  The people preventing Gaza from being governable are the people in charge in Gaza.

If they, like you, continue to think murder is better than peace, then they will continue the status quo.  That's perfectly acceptable to the leaders, most of which live very comfortably in Qatar, London, etc far away from the place where their actions have consequences.  It's much less acceptable to the Palestinians living on the ground.  I hope that the people on the ground can remove the bastards, I fear they wont for lack of incentives and opportunity.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

A solid majority of Israelis support a 2-state solution even now. It doesn't take a genius to see that their historic traumas, plus extreme rhetoric from fundamentalists, plus violent attacks targeting civilians give Israelis enough existential fear to allow rightwing elements more power over policy. Without violent attacks against it, Israel's territory would have been even smaller than the 67 borders if it had been able to sustain at all. But if you want to go on condoning violent "resistance" and mocking the renouncing of it, knock yourself out.

The Holocaust was undeniably the worst single crime in human history, which is precisely why using it as an excuse for Israel's current policy (as opposed to a mediocre rationalization) is offensive to both its victims and the oppressed in Palestine right now. Of the twelve million killed for political/racial reasons by Nazi Germany and its allies, only about half were Jewish. Yet no one tolerated war crimes by Serbian paramilitaries in the 1990's just because of the genocide against them by the Ustase. The persecution of homosexuals which begun with the Night of the Long Knives' purge of most gay NSDAP members and culminated in mass extermination of homosexuals did not change popular attitude towards gays in the postwar era. The Roma, the second-biggest victims of Nazi racial policy after the Jews, received nothing and continue to be treated like subhumans in most of Europe. Why, then, is Israel (which, mind you, is not and should not be considered the representation of all Jews around the world) given the Holocaust as an excuse for current policy in Palestine?

[Bull Moose Base]

A solid majority of Israelis support a 2-state solution even now. It doesn't take a genius to see that their historic traumas, plus extreme rhetoric from fundamentalists, plus violent attacks targeting civilians give Israelis enough existential fear to allow rightwing elements more power over policy. Without violent attacks against it, Israel's territory would have been even smaller than the 67 borders if it had been able to sustain at all. But if you want to go on condoning violent "resistance" and mocking the renouncing of it, knock yourself out.

The Holocaust was undeniably the worst single crime in human history, which is precisely why using it as an excuse for Israel's current policy (as opposed to a mediocre rationalization) is offensive to both its victims and the oppressed in Palestine right now. Of the twelve million killed for political/racial reasons by Nazi Germany and its allies, only about half were Jewish. Yet no one tolerated war crimes by Serbian paramilitaries in the 1990's just because of the genocide against them by the Ustase. The persecution of homosexuals which begun with the Night of the Long Knives' purge of most gay NSDAP members and culminated in mass extermination of homosexuals did not change popular attitude towards gays in the postwar era. The Roma, the second-biggest victims of Nazi racial policy after the Jews, received nothing and continue to be treated like subhumans in most of Europe. Why, then, is Israel (which, mind you, is not and should not be considered the representation of all Jews around the world) given the Holocaust as an excuse for current policy in Palestine?

Re-read the most recent posts…

Bushie asked what Dead0man thinks Palestinians should do.

Dead0man answered nonviolent resistance.

You dismissed as foolish the idea of Palestinians refraining from "violent resistance" i.e. terrorism.

I argued in response that terrorism, together with extremist rhetoric averring the goal of erasing Israel and the historic trauma of the Holocaust led to empowering rightwing groups in Israel, with very negative policy repercussions for Palestinians aspiring for independence and end to occupation. (And that "violent resistance" against Israeli jews had historically only down Israel's territory/created more suffering for Palestinians.) That doesn't look to me to be an especially controversial (or even astute) observation. It seems obvious the lower the level of violence directed at Israeli Jews, the stronger the forces for peace are. That phenomenon is not unique to Israel of course.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

As if anyone believes Snowstalker gives two sh!ts about not trivializing the Holocaust.  What's wrong, Snowstalker?  Did comparing Inks to Hitler get old?

[Simfan34]

"only" half

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I think it would be for the best if everyone pretended that that monumentally moronic post of Snowstalker's had never been. He's just trying to cause a scene because he's a bit of a cock sometimes.

[Simfan34]

I think it would be for the best if everyone pretended that that monumentally moronic post of Snowstalker's had never been. He's just trying to cause a scene because he's a bit of a cock sometimes.

I will say his point about the Holocaust doing little to affect popular attitudes towards gays and the Romani was rather observant, but not in a way that gave any credence to his babblings...

[Simfan34]

Also in the news...

George Galloway declares Bradford ‘an Israel-free zone’

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